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Post by Nataraya on Dec 24, 2004 7:22:10 GMT -5
I found some nice photo's and information about a Hakka art known as Chu Ka Tong Long. A Southern Praying Mantis system, and a very old one. The next teachers were responsible for spreading the art in Malaysia. Any extra information from this branch? Enjoy the comming two days, Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 24, 2004 23:27:24 GMT -5
Hi Evert, Give me a bit of time - might be able to get you some info about Hakka in Malaysia. I know someone here in E Malaysia from an old line's Hakka Boxing. Found some SPM pictures that really remind me of White Crane. What do you guys think? All pictures taken from Master Gin Foon Mark's site.
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Post by essence on Dec 25, 2004 1:08:29 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
The 2nd last picture is a technique I was exposed to when I started my Hung Gar. During our sparring, when we rotated and I met my Sifu, he used this technique (the open hand one) as a Chin, to pull me in. I was very shocked to experience this technique as I never expected an open hand block to be able to "suck" me in as such, but coupled with my forward momentum to attack, this technique pulled me off balance and straight into a palm technique to the face, delivered from waist level up.
My question regarding this technique is, is this technique unique to cantonese systems as I never once experienced this or was taught this while I was learning NCK.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Suhana LIM on Dec 25, 2004 4:55:31 GMT -5
Good day Eric. The 2nd last picture is a technique I was exposed to when I started my Hung Gar. During our sparring, when we rotated and I met my Sifu, he used this technique (the open hand one) as a Chin, to pull me in. I was very shocked to experience this technique as I never expected an open hand block to be able to "suck" me in as such, but coupled with my forward momentum to attack, this technique pulled me off balance and straight into a palm technique to the face, delivered from waist level up. My question regarding this technique is, is this technique unique to cantonese systems as I never once experienced this or was taught this while I was learning NCK. Warmest regards, Tze Hou Tze Hou ni hao I don't know how long have you trained in Ngo Cho Kun,but to my humble knowledge, the techniques that you mentioned above are also available in my lineage. Cheers.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 25, 2004 7:46:32 GMT -5
More about the Chu Ka Tong Long branch in Malaysia:
Lineage:
Buddhist Nun: Leow Fah Shi Ko (1790 -) , Chu Meow Eng/ Chu meow Luan, Ooh Ping Kwang, Lee Siong Pheow ( 1886 – 1961), Tan Hun Poay and Cheong Cheng Leong (Malaysia)………..
It is said that the Buddhist Nun was the sister of Gee Sim.
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Fundamental patterns:
Kai Shan Chien: opening up the mountain, Er Shih Szr Tien: 24 points number 1, Er Shih Szr Tien: 24 points number 2, Hu Chao Chien(Shang Sun Hu): Tiger Claw – Ascending Tiger, Hu Chao Chien (Hsia Sun Hu): Tiger Claw - Descending Tiger, Loong Hu Chien: Dragon and Tiger, Ta Choong Koong: Stamping Inside, the palace being surrounded, Mei Fa Chien: Plumblossom, Lei Wong Tuei: Continuous kicking, Tong Tze Pai kwan Yin: Boy Paying respect to the Godess of mercy, Yin Yan Er Sien Ku: Two positive and negative heavenly ladies, Ta Ooh Li: Strength performance Shih Pa Lohan Chien: 18 hands of Lohan, Foong Yen Tin Sun Chien: Phoenix eye Fist guarding the mountain, Shih Ta Hsing Hsian: Ten animals fighting movements, Kung Sow Twee Chai (1): pre arranged sparring. Kung Sow Twee Chai (2): pre arranged sparring.
Weapons:
Liu Tien Pan Kwan: 6 1/2/ point stick, Mui Fa Kwan: Plum blossom stick, Sho Ho Chian: Neck Locking spear, Chu Tow: Farmers Hoe, Tze Mu Tay: Double knives, Tieh Cher:Iron rulers Kwan Twee Chai: pre arranged stick forms.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 25, 2004 14:28:16 GMT -5
Dear all, To specify Hakka Boxing systems I like to use an extraction of a recent published book from master Paul Withrod. I am a big fan of the way he reveals old knowledge to a broad public. I know that many old masters were NOT happy about his work, due to the many secrets he reveals. The question is "what is a secret". In fact the same did happened in my branch/ family. Once you know then it is not a seceret anymore. Then you see that there are NO secrets, just a matter of diligint practice and dedication. I have sent Russ an old book (collector item) of both iron Ox Boxing and Chow Ga Tong Long. Books you will not find anymore. The below (attached) book will be the same. Only 1000 prints, and then it will be a rare book. If you have a change to get a copy, then DO IT. Great book! Stories of the Southern Mantis arts and other Hakka systems. Before I give the history of the Chow Gar Praying Mantis system I have listed other systems that have close connections with each other. To give an accurate description of every particular Hakka or Southern Mantis system can be a very difficult task because many records in China relating to the different system have been lost or destroyed especially over the last 300 years. But what can be established is the fact that the Hakka (guest family) people have inherited a particular form of martial art for the last 800 years. These arts are known by various names, such as `Lo Mun Gao' = beggar arts which seem to be one of the oldest forms and are associated with the Hakka people, `Chow Gar Tong Long'= Chow family praying Mantis; Chu gar Tong Long' = Chu Family Praying Mantis; `Dit Ngau Tong Long' = Iron Ox Praying Mantis; `Chu Gar Gao' = Chu Family sect; `Sil Lum Chu Gar Gao' = Shaolin Chu family sect; `look Lum Tong Long' = Bamboo Praying Mantis; `Pak Mei' = white eyebrow; `Naam Pei Bak Hok' = Southern White Crane; These are just some of the systems that are and have been related to each other somewhere in the past both near and distant? Each of the arts have similar techniques and forms; some over the centuries have assimilated different techniques from others. Below is a brief summary of their histories; no attempt was made to go into detail. Pak Mei (white eyebrow): Master Cheung Lai Cheung was one of the three tigers of Doong Gong (East river). He had learned much martial arts under three masters before becoming a disciple of a Buddhist abbot who was the third generation representative of the kung fu taught by a white eyebrow Taoist monk. Master Cheung contributed his martial expertise to the revolutionary effort to overthrow the Ching dynasty. He Taught Pak Mei kung fu in Canton. His disciples have since spread the art far and wide. It's emphasis is on floating, sinking, swallowing and spit in its movements. Of its forms are Jik bo (forward step); Gau Bo Tow (nine step push); Fu Choot Lum (tiger out of the woods); are the oldest forms, others are, sarm moon pa kua (Three gate triagram); Sup Jee (crucifix form); Dan Gen (single power); form, sup baat dim yu (18 majic touch); Plus other forms weapons and drills. Dragon Sign: Founded by Lum Yu Gwai. He was a native of Wai Chow in Canton province and was also one of the three tigers. He learned Kung Fu from a Buddhist monk and with his masters permission founded the Dragon Sign. He was also said to be a classmate of Cheung Lai Cheung. Dragon Sign stresses the importance of dropping the shoulders and tucking in the elbows. Forms include Sarm Tun Gwor Kiu, Ying Jow, Marn Fu Til Cheung, Shui Kiu, Say Moon Choi, Say Moon Bil Da, One famous technique is the Dragon signs Ying Moor Kiu. Next time Part 2:
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Post by pitbull on Dec 25, 2004 17:31:55 GMT -5
uhm...as for the secrets thing...my opinion is i think he shouldve consulted his teacher 1st on the sylabus of the book. its his teacher's style anyway....that way he wont get into trouble...sometimes a style staying secret is good. just thinking about 100's of WC phonies around...there are many arnis phonies too...i hear many things about them when arnis teachers talk about them...thats the sad part fro me though...
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Post by Suhana LIM on Dec 26, 2004 4:55:03 GMT -5
Dear all, To specify Hakka Boxing systems I like to use an extraction of a recent published book from master Paul Withrod. I am a big fan of the way he reveals old knowledge to a broad public. I know that many old masters were NOT happy about his work, due to the many secrets he reveals. The question is "what is a secret". In fact the same did happened in my branch/ family. Once you know then it is not a seceret anymore. Then you see that there are NO secrets, just a matter of diligint practice and dedication. I have sent Russ an old book (collector item) of both iron Ox Boxing and Chow Ga Tong Long. Books you will not find anymore. The below (attached) book will be the same. Only 1000 prints, and then it will be a rare book. If you have a change to get a copy, then DO IT. Great book! Da jia ni men hao Regarding the so called "secret" in martial arts, it is understandable if the old masters were unhappy . I do not have any clue what really happened, but I think(?) the author written the book without the approval of the elders of the style. Not to mention if it is really contain some of the "secret" of the style. Cheers.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 26, 2004 5:35:31 GMT -5
The question is always "what is secret"? The Die da recipes which is the BEST in the hole world? Buying ingredients by several herbalist so that they will NEVER get the formula? Or is it the hiccoughing sound in the Tit Sin Kuen form which have a strong reverse breathing skill and therefore...........
My late grandmaster did taught and practice TSK openly in the park. For those who are common with Hung Kuen, this is strange. I have stories that they HATE this because it is held as a secretive system. Teaching and playing the art every morning openly in the parc, is not correct, was said by the grandmasters in Hong Kong. The question is, did he reveal a secret by doing this? Or did he lift up a mystical layer and showed the audience that it is a just a form with interesting ingredients?
If you have an idea about the hakka society, then you know that this culture is surrounded by a mysterious layer. All the way up till the eighties, the doors have been closed for outsiders, and even till today theiur are branches that keep the door closed. San Kung, sorcery, are instruments still played by old schools. But I will let this for what it is because we had already some discussions about this.
Chow ga Tong Long is a branch in Praying mantis Boxing, from the late grandmaster Ip Shui. A great skilled grandmaster, with an unbelievable strong personality, not always liked with other ancestors. Okay, he taught openly to Westerners, and one of his dedicated students was Paul Withrod. Paul was the first to launch almost the whole system on video and published books. His teacher and daisihing Ip Chee Keung agreed. Doing this the doors were going WIDE open. Believe me, the Hakka players were shaking awaken. Forms were discussed, vital points were preseneted in the slightest details, herbal medicines, recipes, breathing skills, and you can go on.
Very interesting material, and absolutely worth to look at and observe it closer. The question is what did it reveals? What was the secret?
It is clear that the martial path is hard working and qualified instruction. There is no way to get the lesson from a book or video. It gives you an impression, as what it did to me. Nothing more then that. Till today these material identifies Hakka for me. recognzing skills seen in Pak mei and Fukien White Crane. And I can go on and on. That's all.
I see that Chow Ga Tong Long is a GREAT system, and the descendants of that system will be schooled wholistic. Exactly the way that we are schooled in our branch. I see that their secertive formules are NOT secret but works well.
As said, there are many ways leading to the top of the mountain, but there is one top. To reach that top you need a guide, no matter which path you take. This guide will show you all the ins and outs of every step. Without such a guide you will be lost, hurt and not understand the lessons of the ancients.
I can give you all the 'secrets' of my system in a book. But it is in Dutch. So you need to learn the language because if you give it to a translator, then you are not the only one. You need to learn dutch, which is a long way. Then the question is; can you understand the vocabulary used in my lineage? Do you know the names of vital points not using the same mandarin terms? What about selecting the herbs, which parts are we chosing/ selecting?
The rest every practitioner can play in. At the end of the climb you asked yourself, what were the secrets? If you are a honest player, you will say nothing. Every detail have its time scale and moment to absorb and contemplate. Dedication and eagerness are the tools you need to keep on heading forwards. HARD WORK will fill in the rest.............
Regards,
Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 26, 2004 6:09:16 GMT -5
Hi everyone, Another “touchy” topic I must say. Personally, I am divided exactly down the middle. Let me explain:- • I don’t believe in holding any thing back when I teach. If I got my mind made up about teaching someone, I go all the way or not at all. IMHO, many solid TCMA eroded simply because “finer points” were held back for whatever reasons. The sad situation is that some styles are now but a shadow of their past brilliance. The Chinese has often being censured for having this “not teaching” mentality. And this is not just in the realm of CKF but also in many other fields of knowledge. • I don’t believe in opening up totally to “outsiders”. And on good grounds too. I just went through the most incredible experience of having a “White Crane fraud” claiming to teach 2 forms that I sent in CDs. Frankly, I don’t care who he cons but to have my family’s name dragged through all this is a total disgrace. So that pretty much summed up my position. Do a good job teaching those I thrust and be very vigilant in divulging too much to the shady. Evert, I think you’ll appreciate my sentiments. Would you open up your private collection to just anybody?
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Post by Suhana LIM on Dec 26, 2004 7:50:06 GMT -5
The question is always "what is secret"? The Die da recipes which is the BEST in the hole world? Buying ingredients by several herbalist so that they will NEVER get the formula? Or is it the hiccoughing sound in the Tit Sin Kuen form which have a strong reverse breathing skill and therefore........... If you have an idea about the hakka society, then you know that this culture is surrounded by a mysterious layer. All the way up till the eighties, the doors have been closed for outsiders, and even till today theiur are branches that keep the door closed. San Kung, sorcery, are instruments still played by old schools. But I will let this for what it is because we had already some discussions about this. It is clear that the martial path is hard working and qualified instruction. There is no way to get the lesson from a book or video. It gives you an impression, as what it did to me. Nothing more then that. Till today these material identifies Hakka for me. recognzing skills seen in Pak mei and Fukien White Crane. And I can go on and on. That's all. As said, there are many ways leading to the top of the mountain, but there is one top. To reach that top you need a guide, no matter which path you take. This guide will show you all the ins and outs of every step. Without such a guide you will be lost, hurt and not understand the lessons of the ancients. I can give you all the 'secrets' of my system in a book. But it is in Dutch. So you need to learn the language because if you give it to a translator, then you are not the only one. You need to learn dutch, which is a long way. Then the question is; can you understand the vocabulary used in my lineage? Do you know the names of vital points not using the same mandarin terms? What about selecting the herbs, which parts are we chosing/ selecting? The rest every practitioner can play in. At the end of the climb you asked yourself, what were the secrets? If you are a honest player, you will say nothing. Every detail have its time scale and moment to absorb and contemplate. Dedication and eagerness are the tools you need to keep on heading forwards. HARD WORK will fill in the rest............. Regards, Evert. Da jia ni men hao Like in other arts that required hard works, dedications, years of experiences, martial arts is similar. There is no such thing as "short cut", "accelerated system", unless you want to market yourself. To be able to absorb, fully understand and know the soul / secret of the art, one needs to dedicate his time and energy and financially. Yes, one also need guidance from qualified teacher. No book or video can replace this. Last but not least, it will be ideal and best if one can also understand the culture and speak the language. There is always something that we prefer to "keep" for ourselves. It's is a natural thing. China the country with thousand years of ups and downs, infightings among villages, kingdoms. It is common to "keep" some secret from the outsiders.We have to understand this, especially martial techniques are similar as secret weapons that can decide who is the last man standing in the battlefield. Of course we cannot erase this kind of attitude in just one night. Especially from the older generations. In regards of Hakka (Khek) community, personally I know them well since my beloved wife is Khe Jia Den( Hakka). The Khek are just like any other communities in China. They are NOT as secretive and mysterious as some people think they are. But I have to admit that I still can't communicate fluently in Khek dialect , now this is "mysterious" for me. Cheers.
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Post by pitbull on Dec 26, 2004 8:51:58 GMT -5
about holding back secrets...if i were to teach ill definitely hold back things but open it up when the pupil is in the right time to know about things. keeping secrets will make the art's life shorter...and teachers should also examine a pupil's make up or attitude..if he has a 'diff' attitude then better keep things from him...if he can be trusted better tell him...that way you always have a backup...like an exit plan...
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Post by Suhana LIM on Dec 26, 2004 19:30:28 GMT -5
about holding back secrets...if i were to teach ill definitely hold back things but open it up when the pupil is in the right time to know about things. keeping secrets will make the art's life shorter...and teachers should also examine a pupil's make up or attitude..if he has a 'diff' attitude then better keep things from him...if he can be trusted better tell him...that way you always have a backup...like an exit plan...[/quote Da jia ni men hao It's always not an easy option for teacher to pass on everything to his students. In most cases, if the teacher reveals everything, it means he trusts and personally close to the student. But if not, there must be certain reason. Martial art , like other skill and knowledge, is actually quiete simple. I agree, if you can put your time and energy train and with the assistance of qualified teacher, one day you will be able to find out everything. At this point, you are "enlighten" and there is NO MORE MYSTERIOUS / SECRET anymore. Why?, because you have known the tips and tricks of the trade. But before we reach to that stage, we still need help from someone (usually our teacher). From the teacher we can reap plenty important thing related to the art,because of their experiences. Experiences are far more meaningful than the theories, techniques. That's why experience is the most valuable aspect we can absorb from the teacher. Without a close and good relationship, do you willing to share your experience (related to the art) with someone? In many ocassion, the students try to rush thing. They seem impatient want to master the art in a flash. Unfortunately in martial art, thing doesn't work this way. You cannot mould novice to master level by days, months, or couple years. If you insist , you'll ended up with producing "PLASTIC MASTER." Alas, this type of "masters" are everywhere. By attending short courses, seminars, someone suddenly get the title of "master", "chief instructor", etc. This is crap! For some people, they use different avenue to be known. After learning the art for a couple of years, they think that they already know everything. Then they write and publish a book. It is not bad, but with the limitation of what they know about the art, this only bring harm than benefit to the art. This practice sometimes can cause anger among the elders of the arts. In my humble experience, not all books about the arts that available are good. Cheers.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 27, 2004 9:01:41 GMT -5
Part 2:
Lo Mun Ga
Lo Mun Ga systems of martial arts are probably the oldest of all the Hakka inherited arts and have a history of 800 years. They are also known as beggar hand or gypsy martial arts, because they were taught by travelling people (gypsies). Also the name was given to the system as beggar hand, for the popular belief in the way the arms are held as if begging. Techniques were to drop the shoulders, tuck in the elbows and the use of floating swallow sink and spit. This Lo Mun Ga was a very strict system. One was required to be celibate to enhance the powers. This was called Fa tsai kuen (flower boy fist). This form of martial art was strict not only in its methods but in etiquette also. Such regime was too arduous to train, as there were many vows that a student had to take. Lo Mun Ga started to disappear from early this century and from recent sources there is now only one school left in Hong Kong.
Southern Mantis (Chow, Chu, Iron Ox, Jook Lum)
There has been much debate which system is the oldest, though I have plenty of information regarding these arts. (The Chow Gar Praying Mantis is listed later) Most of these arts have at most five generations to their family tree. The Iron Ox Southern Praying Mantis system was founded by a master named Choy Dit Ngau. His name Dit Ngau means iron ox and he lived at the end of the last century. He was also a friend of the Lau Soei (Chow Gar Praying Mantis). Chu Gar Praying Mantis dates back to the same time as Chow Gar Praying Mantis though there have been debates surrounding the names Chu and Chow. Jook Lum Praying Mantis prominent leader also said to be founder of Jook Lum was Cheung Yu Chung who lived in the early part of the 20th century. He also knew Lau Soei when he was in China and when Lau Soei settled in Hong Kong teaching Chow Gar Mantis, Cheung Yu Chung often came by and stayed with Lau Soei. But overall these martial arts have a connection in the past to each other. They use the iron claw, the phoenix fist and the ginger fist and have similar forms to each other such as three-step arrow amongst others.
Royal Household kung fu
Another of the similar systems was the royal household kung fu, so called because it was taught to the Royal family during the Ming and the middle of the Ching dynasty. The form of Hakka martial art contains the same or similar skills to the other Hakka related arts such as the phoenix fist as well as the 3 step arrow forms. It has also taken on other names such as Chu Gar Shaolin and Chow Gar Shaolin.
Southern White Crane.
Its history began during the Ching dynasty about 200 years ago, founded by Fan Chi Niang in the Yong country. This style emphasises the dan tin gung. It is also said that modern Karate-attributes much to this system as its ancestor. What links many of these systems is the 3 step arrow form which in Karate-do is called San Chin (three arrows).
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 2, 2005 12:02:06 GMT -5
Pictures of Hakka styles:- #1 Late GM Cheung doing Bak Mei. #2 Li Gar Tong Long #3 Vagabond Kung Fu normally associated with Hakka.
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