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Post by essence on Nov 16, 2004 10:34:50 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
I was born quite some time after the racial riots, and so, cannot say that I personally experienced life back then. I have studied about it in my history lessons, and life must have been tough back then. Many people died needlessly, kung fu must have played an important role back then.
It is true that kung fu today has become more of a hobby than a means of survival. I personally do it to find out more about my culture and also, a means of defense if the need should arise.
With regards to system modification, I myself do not understand this concept, but many people say that it is important that things evolve and not stay stagnant. But, in my humble opinion, and no offense to anyone, I believe that if something is not broken, there is no need to fix it.
Another interesting thing you brought up was that some people have not been taught the system in its entirety. My friend told me that old sifus used to keep secrets to themselves, to prevent the students from being able to rebel against them. Sometimes, the secret is taken to the grave with them, and thus, over time, the system becomes less and less potent. Is this true? What do you think about this?
I am very proud to be able to learn Hung Gar, to me, this is the style that I have been looking for all my life. The history of this style is intertwined so much with the Chinese culture and I love the foundations of this style. Not to be offensive, but when you say that the history of Hung Gar is written in blood what do you mean? I really do not understand this point, are you referring to the Boxer's Rebellion, or just in general to Hung Gar's connection with the Anti-Ching movements?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by pitbull on Nov 16, 2004 18:07:47 GMT -5
we are really fortunate here in the philippines that we NEVER have to deal with racial riots. the filipino govt knows the value of the sino-fil industry and institutions that if disturebed will send the economy and the country down the bowl...HOWEVER,we still have to contend with some racial insults and race-oriented crime...people here most of the time see all chinese as rich businessmen,however they dont see the few chinese beggars and simple joes that comprises most of the chinese populace. how the taipans here in the philippines got rich was a story of hardwork and perseverance. henry sy,one of asia's top 10 richest came to the philippines wearing rags as shoes...lucio tan who owns the tobacco monopoly was once a humble salesman,even the cojuancos were poor then, they were farmer/scavengers and bought land with their earnings...and much much more...we even have some of these storie too in Konghan although to a lesser extent though hehehe. as for me,i wish to be the 'menthol emperor' monopolizing all menthol and camphor balm in the country ;-) back to racial related crimes,being chinese you are many folds more likely to be a victim of a crime and kidnapping tops it,then mugging second then robbery third...as i have stated numerous times, it was these things plus the madmax movies and bronson movies as well(and cpbra by stallone,crime is a cancer),and also 'bei dou shen quan' comics(which has a kunfu hero killing thugs,a vigilante.was a big hit in the early 80's) that compelled me to learn and train...i myself have been victim to mugging 3x..the latest being last april 12 only. of these 3 only one was successful. kids of chinese decent are sometimes also prone to be bullied as well..i think i can also speak for the tiny indian populace here. they are also a hardworking lot and also suffer the same problems. to a lesser extent that is...
as for refining kungfu,its fine so long as you tell your students and you should still be able to teach the classical stuff...evolution is constant...many systems are derived from this...chua li put is one. hungput is another,also my native nck and so on and sooo forth..so long as we remember where it came from,its ok...disrespect is unforgivable. should be spanked on the buns...
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Post by pitbull on Nov 16, 2004 18:31:20 GMT -5
PS: i am also staring to have an interest with peho and recently w wu style taichi
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 16, 2004 20:28:42 GMT -5
Hi folks, I will try and put all my replies in this 1 post. Busy with my business – some of us got to work for a living. Russ, thank you very much for that intro – you must know I am waiting for it. Now you are family – I WILL send you materials as discussed. Like Pit said, you are cousin. Tze Hou, there are many classical ways of dissecting North/South Kung Fu. I’ll share a couple:- • “Northern Legs and Southern Fists”. This I think is , by far, the most recognizable. Many arguments put forth for this – Northern folks wear bulky clothing and this affect the ways their fighting skills were developed. Northern terrains are open/wide and main mode of transportation was horse riding. This lead to concentration on legs etc etc…… Southern folks are were more city dwellers and fighting was confined to smaller spaces. The other major shaping force was the itinerant “Wayang” folks – traditionally linked to major CKF. In fact, operas apprentices go through kung fu like training regimen. And these folks traveled up and down rivers in their “junks”. Kung Fu training was confined to small decks and steady stances took paramount significance. As a side note; in Singapore the “secret societies” had a “slogan” that run like this “I arrive on a red junk ……..” You then identify your territory. Give a wrong name and it is “chop chop” time. • “Northern styles – one stance one technique. Southern styles – one stance many techniques” This is more or less saying the same thing as aforementioned. There are many more but there are more obscure, usually orally transmitted in dialects. However, the most interesting saying must be, “hands are 2 doors and to win you use your feet”. Interesting because both Northerners and Southerners preach this. “Use your feet” here means more than kicks, footwork is really the gist. In my Fuzhou Crane this is equivalent to “taking all fights to the 4th gate”. In Wing Chun, this relates to body shifting/hand techniques to jam opponent’s centerline. I do jamming but not so much Wing Chun style. We do what we call “busy hands” – engage the opponent with fast hand-combo and penetrate the 4th gate. “He Qi Wu” or “Crane dancing/fluttering” is a good example. In the words of my late Sifu; when you fight, you are first fighting your opponent’s mind (eyes). Lead this and your victory is assured. Another very common segregation is internal/external. Internally you train your “chi”, externally your train tendons and bones. But in Shaolin, which is both internal/external, this internal/external description takes on another connotation. External are “outside” students. Internal are “closed doors” disciples. I think the great divide between Northern/Southern is vague. Take any TCMA and you’ll find traits of all genres. Remember this, when you are out there fighting for life, you’ll use anything that works – regardless. The blood thing came from some Cantonese Kung Fu Masters. Hung Gar played a critical role in fighting the Manchu (in fact, more or less, borne during that era), the Europeans, the Japanese and even the communists. Many of the Hung Gar “high hands” I knew were Kuomintang – proud members of the “big knife” troop. Many years ago, if you go to Mac Ritchie Reservoir, on an early Sunday morning, you would find a big group of these traditional kung fu experts. At Lim Bo Seng’s tomb. You’ll find Tai Chi/Pak Kua/Praying Mantis/White Crane/Hung Gar and even Mongolian Wrestling experts exchanging. These are all Kung Fu masters who fled the communists rule on the mainland. Many of the histories I know are from these folks. Ps. For those of you who think Tai Chi is not fighting – the Tai Chi masters then were sending people flying through the air. And I am not talking rehearsed routine! I am talking “free sparring”. Playing with these folks, I was nothing more than a “basket ball”. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 16, 2004 21:34:38 GMT -5
[quote Another interesting thing you brought up was that some people have not been taught the system in its entirety. My friend told me that old sifus used to keep secrets to themselves, to prevent the students from being able to rebel against them. Sometimes, the secret is taken to the grave with them, and thus, over time, the system becomes less and less potent. Is this true? What do you think about this? Warmest regards, Tze Hou[/quote] Tze Hou ni hao Not only your friend, I believe this issue (sifu keep one last form just in case the student become uncontrolable) has been around since ancient time. In late 60s and early 70s, this topic also "hot" among my friends. We always wonder if our sifu will pass on everything to us. I have to admit that I'm lucky enough because my sifu is truly honest and open. He will tell us the real fact and truth about martial arts. If something only "imagination, stories," he will frankly told us. In that way, we fully able to know if something is real or just "stories." ;D In my humble opinion, it's up to the teacher and ourselves. Both must have mutual honesty and make close and good relationship. I've one friend who had been following his sifu for over ten years, unfortunately his understanding and knowledge about his art is not good. He still easily distracted if he hear something flashy somewhere by someone. I really feel sorry for him. Cheers.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 16, 2004 21:40:26 GMT -5
Eric, Pitbull ni men hao Talking about racial, I am sure we the hoakiau in Indo know every detail of this matter. In fact, just recently we have to deal with "The Rape of Jakarta." Nearly every house, must have somekind of weapon, just in case something bad happen. Tall and solid fences from brick or metal is standard and normal for the property. It's very unfortunate and sad, but this kind of racial pressure that we have to endure, made us stronger and more creative in dealing with them. Cheers.
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Nov 16, 2004 21:42:24 GMT -5
My attitude to this is that what was once discovered and then lost can always be rediscovered.
I am not 100% sure that teachers hold things back on purpose. I think there are certain things that you must discover for yourself once you have reached a certain level. A teacher can only guide you so far ... sometimes you have to figure out the rest of the way yourself. The arts become diluted not because the teacher has not taught the art completely, but more because the student has not made the effort to discover the art completely.
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Post by pitbull on Nov 16, 2004 21:58:43 GMT -5
i think its a case to case basis... but surely,most of the time,a master will teach a few or only one trusted disciple his secrets...some sifus dont teach everything...fearing that the student may open a school and compete with him! LOL hehehe(nobody specific pls hehehe)
as for the rape of jakarta,we here in manila are very angry about that. and we held protests against such barbarism...the Lord will have ways of doing divine justice to them
there was a rally some months back that is anti chinese in nature and the protesters were barred a few meters from chinatown by the police..its good that this didnt esca;late into something stupid from people that are stupid...i must admit that for a time i am thnking of using my weapons for actual use...
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Post by pitbull on Nov 16, 2004 22:00:42 GMT -5
i thnk the anti chinese sentiment came from china rising back into her rightful place in humanity...the rally was sponsored by pro US activists...as we all know..the philippine govt and some of our filipino friends are still sadly very much 'america's faithful puppy'.. sorry for the term...but thats a direct translation of "tuta" or puppy
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Nov 16, 2004 22:06:12 GMT -5
i think its a case to case basis... but surely,most of the time,a master will teach a few or only one trusted disciple his secrets...some sifus dont teach everything...fearing that the student may open a school and compete with him! LOL hehehe(nobody specific pls hehehe) as for the rape of jakarta,we here in manila are very angry about that. and we held protests against such barbarism...the Lord will have ways of doing divine justice to them there was a rally some months back that is anti chinese in nature and the protesters were barred a few meters from chinatown by the police..its good that this didnt esca;late into something stupid from people that are stupid...i must admit that for a time i am thnking of using my weapons for actual use... Yes, that is true also. However, there seems to be a perception that every master does this and I do not believe this to be the case. My belief is that at the highest levels of most arts there are things that just cannot be taught. They have to be discovered or realised by the student. Just a theory I once studied the anti-Chinese riots that occurred in Indonesia and Malaysia as part of an economics course. The theory is that the discontent was caused by the success of the Chinese businessmen, leading to large segments of the indigenous population believe that they were dishonest or cheating in business. According the the economic studies, the truth was that the family cohesion in the Chinese businesses gave them an operating edge because labour costs were lowered. Interesting stuff.
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Post by essence on Nov 16, 2004 22:31:30 GMT -5
Good day everybody.
Fatman, I do not mean to say that every sifu will hold back intentionally. Far from it, there will be some sifu like the members of this forum, willing to share and impart their knowledge in order to further the art.
However, it is a known fact that the Chinese like to "save face" and are "scared to lose". This, in turn, leads to secrecy and being miserly, as pitbull and Suhana have pointed out, the sifu might be scared of the student turning on him or opening a school to compete with him.
Regarding racial riots, I believe that everywhere you go, as long as there are 2 or more different races, their will be racial tensions. To say that there is mutual acceptance of the races, I feel, is to lie to oneself. I believe that it is more of a mutual tolerance, allowing each other to do their own things. We might have friends of many other races, but this does not disguise the fact that the tension is there. To be honest, I face racial discrimination almost everyday in Australia, but as long as no one goes too far, I will be able to turn and walk away.
Eric, I have never heard of the saying "hands are 2 doors, you use your feet to win". This is something new to me, and I thank you for imparting this to me. In fact, thinking back to application, this makes very good sense. Many of the stances, when broken down by my Sifu, is actually an attack of the knee, an attempt to break the knee joint. Usually, the stances involve a strong Sei Ping Ma and a technique which is used to bridge the opponent, before transition into Lao Ma, I think it's arrow stance, and the application of another technique, so we simultaneously attack the head/body and legs. And, to be honest, I always felt the attack on the upper gates would be blocked, as if you have bridged your opponents, so has he bridged you. Is this roughly what you meant by saying that?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 16, 2004 23:06:38 GMT -5
Thank for all your views on this matter. So, if a person needs to alter his style, can I assume that:- • He has mastered it wholly and therefore in the position to determine what changes are needed? To modify, without full knowledge, is ignorant? • Over time, this misguided procedure can only water down the original system. If one looks back at classical systems, chances are you see merger rather than “modifications”. Cases in point:- 1. Ngo Chor 2. Choy Li Fut 3. Hong Fut 4. Tai Chi Praying Mantis 5. Eight steps Praying Mantis 6. 6 Harmonious Ways 7. Sun’s Tai Chi ( a very clever blend of Tai Chi and Hsing Yi) 8. Yi Chuan 9. Tai Sheng Pek Kwa 10. Ying Chow Fan Zi 11. Fu Hok Pai 12. Chou Jia – combinations of at least 6 Cantonese styles. I got 12 here but the list goes on and on…<br> Rarely, have I come across someone just modifying a certain system because it was’nt totally “right” in the first place. At the risk of coming across as a “racist”, most of these modifications are really done in non-Chinese communities by non-Chinese. Why? I often wonder if this is not a case of not understanding in the first place and modifying in order to teach.
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Post by pitbull on Nov 16, 2004 23:09:28 GMT -5
let me add something as well..some sifus are afraid of their beloved art falling into the wrong person...we dont always enjoy this much teaching you know :-) some of the high forms are only appearing now and are starting to be shown to the public...samples of which are 'mi lai tzam' from lama pai as i was told...
as for the racial tension against chinese here in SEasia...i think it has to do more with envy..while they are also many success stories w the locals they chose to ignore it and always notice the chinese hehehe...they didnt know that the richest(is she still) woman in malaysia is a filipina who earned her forune by selling beauty products! LOL...
tolerance is a simple word but sooo hard to practice...i just dont know why...
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 16, 2004 23:17:20 GMT -5
Eric, I have never heard of the saying "hands are 2 doors, you use your feet to win". This is something new to me, and I thank you for imparting this to me. In fact, thinking back to application, this makes very good sense. Many of the stances, when broken down by my Sifu, is actually an attack of the knee, an attempt to break the knee joint. Usually, the stances involve a strong Sei Ping Ma and a technique which is used to bridge the opponent, before transition into Lao Ma, I think it's arrow stance, and the application of another technique, so we simultaneously attack the head/body and legs. And, to be honest, I always felt the attack on the upper gates would be blocked, as if you have bridged your opponents, so has he bridged you. Is this roughly what you meant by saying that? Warmest regards, Tze Hou HaHaHa Tze Hou, It is getting clearer and clearer, I am not to give you too much. In no time, you would "surpass" me and I will lose face. But I also remember that "green emerges from blue" and in the great Chang Ziang, it is the rear waves that push the front waves. To ensure continuation, nothing must be held back. Having said that, giving to the "RIGHT" person is really the most critical. Having talent and willing to train hard is half the equation. The other half is "fate". I like to say this a lot, to Evert and Martin. And now I am saying this to all in this family:- 'IF IT IS MEANT TO BE, 10000 MILES CANNOT STOP IT". "IF IT IS NOT YOURS, IT IS NOT".
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Post by essence on Nov 17, 2004 0:43:02 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
Haha, you will never have to worry about me surpassing you or "losing face". To me, you are a senior who has been in the martial community far longer than I have, and with that position goes authority and respect and I will always accord my seniors with the respect they deserve.
Especially when they teach me, then I feel indebted to them. Even more so when they are furthering the knowledge of traditional martial arts, I feel an even deeper sense of respect for these true masters.
Thank you for your generosity in the imparting of your knowledge.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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