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Post by essence on Nov 9, 2004 3:56:23 GMT -5
History is full of fiction, and it is hard for us to verify names and stories. This certainly counts for Hung Kuen. Therefore I prefer to let names go and look more closely to ingredients. Ingredients much closer will explain the path of development. For the old timers between us – of this forum – you could have read in between the lines that Fukien province did play an essential role in Southern Martial Arts. The county/ area of Yong Chun did play an important role in the past. Crane Boxing is a very old version of Boxing, like Lo Han. Tiger Boxing was a popular hard style of Shaolin Boxing too. Combine these three and see what you get…….. Somewhere I try to explain that Hung Si Kwoen started with eight Crane, eight Tiger and Lo Han. Centuries after it did evolutes into the last version of Wong Fei Hung Fu Hoc Seung Ying Kuen. ( please this is my personal [current] vision !) The Ten Tigers of Kwantung did have a serious impact on the development of Cantonese Boxing in totally. Probably other presentations of Crane Boxing – or maybe just another way of interpretation and Faat – were introduced. Leading to a much harder way of Crane skills. Also I see with my own students that it is hard for students to present the animals in a different Modus/ Geng/ Jin. The Hung Kuen player does his best to represent the styles trademarks, with the risk that the Crane becomes too Tiger-ish. I have many recordings showing this, it is up to the teachers to keep on correcting this with your student. Yes, sometimes this is a pain in the a**. The tree have many twigs, whatever sort you are facing at. Not one of the twigs are the same, even the flowers and fruit will taste differently. Every moon the tree is changing, a natural process, nothing wrong with that. Its like us martial artist – and certainly with me. Every workout is also a lesson for me. Every letter I read on this forum, I learn. Over the many moons I will change too. So far I do not concern that much about the ‘ultimate’ because martial arts is about me. Like I said earlier in previous mail, it’s the process in your mind (San), that create growth. Some prefer physical actions, others prefer the wisdom of the ancients. Finally, it doesn’t matter, its all there. Warm regards, Evert. Good day Evert. I understand what you are trying to say. I think it will be extremely difficult to trace the exact name of the people who pioneered the styles, due to the situation at the time sometimes requiring people to change their names. Perhaps, there is a link between Wing Chun, Hung Gar and White Crane, if the names of the ancestors of these styles have been changed, but as Eric said, let us discuss about the elements of the style which may imply their relation. Perhaps another thread to discuss the possibility of common founding ancestors? Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by essence on Nov 9, 2004 4:16:52 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
Thank you for the reply. It did clear up some questions for me but it created some more which I hope can be answered.
Again, please excuse my ignorance.
I know of the city of Yong Chun, as my friend from Eng Beng refers to NCK as Eng Choon Five Masters Sect, or Yong Chun Wu Zhu Quan, and he will pointed out to me that Yong Chun (Eng Choon in Hokkien and Wing Chun in Cantonese) is a city.
However, there is a theory to support that Wing Chun (the art not the place) was so named in honour of the Yong Chun Tang in Shaolin. Perhaps, we could have another thread to discuss this?
Again, at the risk of offending you, and I do apologise, many theories point to the marriage of Yim Wing Chun and Hung Hay Gwoon as the creation of Hung Gar. Whether they got married or not is another debateable topic, but you have said that popular belief is that Fang Chi Niang took Chen Shi (tiger style) to be her husband. I find that too much of a coincidence (considering the possibility of changed names). Also, the same individual could possibly be known by many different names in different provinces, so is it possible that we are talking about the same people but with different names?
Also, you pointed out that the definition of White Crane was "fighting from a woman's perspective". Would you agree that Wing Chun has the same fundamental principle? From your answer that White Crane teaches yielding and deflection and comparing to my limited knowledge of Wing Chun, coupled with your description of White Crane, it reinforced in me the possibility of both styles sharing the same founding ancestor.
I am sorry for taking this topic off the discussion off techniques and principles. Maybe a new thread is necessary?
Once again, thank you for sharing your knowledge and please forgive me if I have offended anyone.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 9, 2004 6:36:49 GMT -5
Hi Essence, Sorry in a bit of a rush right now - meeting a Kung Fu master for some tea - a White Crane Master from the old schools. Okay just a quick comment on names; You know Canon - the big Japanese brand. Originally called Kwanon - the Japanese version of Kwan In, the Chinese deity. To penetrate Western markets, the name Kwanon with religious undertones was considered sensitive. Viola - now we have CANON. So corporate sounding.
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Post by essence on Nov 9, 2004 7:17:17 GMT -5
Hi Essence, Sorry in a bit of a rush right now - meeting a Kung Fu master for some tea - a White Crane Master from the old schools. Okay just a quick comment on names; You know Canon - the big Japanese brand. Originally called Kwanon - the Japanese version of Kwan In, the Chinese deity. To penetrate Western markets, the name Kwanon with religious undertones was considered sensitive. Viola - now we have CANON. So corporate sounding. Good day Eric. I wish I have the opportunity to meet up with old masters here, but they are few in this part of the world, in other words, I envy you. But going on your reply, I take it you agree that the name does not hold water, i.e., the name can be can be changed to penetrate the market (in this case different provinces or to escape persecution). I will go look for some elders regarding this issue when I return to Singapore and hopefully, be able to dig up some more information. Thank you for sharing your information. Regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 9, 2004 8:22:33 GMT -5
Dear Tze Hou,
Without sounding arrogant, I am afraid that I passed that station. For more then 25 years I am facing historical names, and did collect information. The stories become bigger and bigger, and the styles that relates to the "one of the Five", also bigger and bigger. For me it isn't worth that much, they are just names (if they ever existed).
Principles, methods and flavor are my current tools to analyse a system. This together with translations of old historical documents, brings IMHO much more to the surface. Most of the translated documents are of Northern oriigin, but that doesn't matter. I am more then happy with some of my contacts (scholars), they give me good and proper information and translations.
My own student Ming Fai is Sinologist and almost finish with his study politics. His knowledge about political and economical situation of (Southern) China explain a lot too. I can imagine that this is hard to understand, but I am sorry, it is a fact. Also he practiced intensively last year in Beijing with some authorities in the field of Tongbei and Taiji Mei Hua Tang lang and Luk Hop Tong Long. Especially the information from White Gibbon Tong Bei was a real eye opener for all of us, and there (eventual) impact on Southern Boxing. In fact the same count when you look closely to Tai Ji Mei Hua Tang Lang, and its technical possible relations to Ying Chun county/ arts.
Things I discussed with Eric in private. If you are willing to offer Eric some Carlsberg, then I can ensure you, he will keep on talking. Especially when you feed him enough, hahahahahaha.
Kind regards,
Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 9, 2004 8:23:27 GMT -5
Hi folks,
Just back from a tea session with Sifu Leong – one of the late GM Wang Yi Ing’s most senior students. GM Wang was a renowned Whooping Crane expert highly revered in the world of Fuzhou Crane.
Evert, we have another walking Kung Fu encyclopedia who has been there and done that. Sifu Leong’s knowledge of TCMA is just mind-boggling!
Tze Hou, I am blessed I know. Thanks to my late Sifu high standing in the Kung Fu world, I find myself warmly received into many inner circles.
Okay back to business;
I am not ready to say that Hong and wife were Fang and her husband. I know that there is a possibility that this could be but I don’t have enough to make a call here.
Again, I must stress that I agree with Evert. Looking at names/dates and events could make us go round and round in a circle game (to borrow from an old song).
So the best is still to look at substance.
Now I have a story to tell. Last night, after training, I was sitting around with my 2 New York students. One of them is an archaeologist/anthropologist researching Chinese’s influence on the development of native Sarawakian cultures. Apparently back about 3,000 years ago, the Chinese were in this part of SE Asia trading with the natives. I was stunned as I always thought Chinese only came here back a few hundred years ago – Admiral Cheng Ho and all that.
He is going through artifacts left by the visiting Chinese to establish dates and periods of these interactions.
I see a parallel of sort here. Take 2 systems of tcma and look for “evidence” of cross-breeding and perhaps we could work backwards to compose the historical story.
Evert, you are right. Shaking is not exceptional to White Crane. It is done in various styles. At this point, I only want to say that White Crane’s “shaking” is not exactly, like say, Chen’s Tai Chi.
Having said that, Praying Mantis’s shaking/stretching is also very singular in my book.
My argument has always been this; Fuzhou (later days) Crane absorded many internal elements into its composition. “Shaking” being a high up feature. Remove these internal distinctiveness and you end up with Yong Chun Crane.
For folks who like to stick to the Fuzhou Crane/Karate connection, my challenge is simply this; show me these internal elements.
Tze Hou, when you are back in Singapore, go look up Ah Teck (Sifu Teo Choon Teck, Tai Chor). Ah Teck has got plenty to give you. To Ah Teck, I am Ah Lim (my name in Fukien).
You can find him down at the Singapore Martial Arts Instructor Association - Fort Rd.
Ah Teck is still teaching San Cheen Do there.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 9, 2004 8:33:07 GMT -5
Dear Tze Hou, Things I discussed with Eric in private. If you are willing to offer Eric some Carlsberg, then I can ensure you, he will keep on talking. Especially when you feed him enough, hahahahahaha. Kind regards, Evert. Arrrrh Carlsberg, music to my ears and nectar to my taste buds... Evert, why must you always be right? ? If you keep looking backwards - you have to look North, trust me. First Shaolin - Honan etc etc...
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Post by essence on Nov 9, 2004 8:49:18 GMT -5
Dear Tze Hou, Without sounding arrogant, I am afraid that I passed that station. For more then 25 years I am facing historical names, and did collect information. The stories become bigger and bigger, and the styles that relates to the "one of the Five", also bigger and bigger. For me it isn't worth that much, they are just names (if they ever existed). Principles, methods and flavor are my current tools to analyse a system. This together with translations of old historical documents, brings IMHO much more to the surface. Most of the translated documents are of Northern oriigin, but that doesn't matter. I am more then happy with some of my contacts (scholars), they give me good and proper information and translations. My own student Ming Fai is Sinologist and almost finish with his study politics. His knowledge about political and economical situation of (Southern) China explain a lot too. I can imagine that this is hard to understand, but I am sorry, it is a fact. Also he practiced intensively last year in Beijing with some authorities in the field of Tongbei and Taiji Mei Hua Tang lang and Luk Hop Tong Long. Especially the information from White Gibbon Tong Bei was a real eye opener for all of us, and there (eventual) impact on Southern Boxing. In fact the same count when you look closely to Tai Ji Mei Hua Tang Lang, and its technical possible relations to Ying Chun county/ arts. Things I discussed with Eric in private. If you are willing to offer Eric some Carlsberg, then I can ensure you, he will keep on talking. Especially when you feed him enough, hahahahahaha. Kind regards, Evert. Good day Evert. I understand exactly what you mean. I am passing through the phase you went through 25 years ago now and am at a very curious state. My knowledge of martial arts is still very limited, so I have to thank you for sharing your vast knowledge with me and being patient enough to explain things to me. Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by essence on Nov 9, 2004 8:52:15 GMT -5
Tze Hou, when you are back in Singapore, go look up Ah Teck (Sifu Teo Choon Teck, Tai Chor). Ah Teck has got plenty to give you. To Ah Teck, I am Ah Lim (my name in Fukien). Good day Eric. I will go look him up when I am back in Singapore. Would you happen to know his time table teaching at Fort Rd? Thank you for this excellent reference. Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 9, 2004 9:02:20 GMT -5
Tze Hou, The last time I spoke to Ah Teck, he told me he is still doing Mondays and Thursday. Actually the best time to see him is Sunday mornings. That is when the senior classes are held. Tell me when you would be in Singapore. I go back regularly and if we are there together, I could bring you to see some veterans. The Chou Gar group I mentioned and off course my own Fuzhou & Whooping Crane. I am also close to the Jin Wu and Bak Siu Lam folks. So if you want to explore Northern Arts...... One very interesting old Sifu is Seah Choon Cheok. Sifu Seah was my mentor for many years. His knowledge of White Crane, to me, is unmatched. When he is in the mood, you get to see some BEAUTIFUL stuff!
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Post by essence on Nov 9, 2004 9:08:13 GMT -5
Tze Hou, The last time I spoke to Ah Teck, he told me he is still doing Mondays and Thursday. Actually the best time to see him is Sunday mornings. That is when the senior classes are held. Tell me when you would be in Singapore. I go back regularly and if we are there together, I could bring you to see some veterans. The Chou Gar group I mentioned and off course my own Fuzhou & Whooping Crane. I am also close to the Jin Wu and Bak Siu Lam folks. So if you want to explore Northern Arts...... One very interesting old Sifu is Seah Choon Cheok. Sifu Seah was my mentor for many years. His knowledge of White Crane, to me, is unmatched. When he is in the mood, you get to see some BEAUTIFUL stuff! Good day Eric. I will be in Singapore from the 15th of December till after the Chinese New Year. I would be most grateful if you could take the time to personally show me around your world of martial arts. Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 9, 2004 9:14:45 GMT -5
Good day Eric. I will be in Singapore from the 15th of December till after the Chinese New Year. I would be most grateful if you could take the time to personally show me around your world of martial arts. Warmest regards, Tze Hou Sounds good. I should be in Singapore during the mentioned period. Let's confirm this in December. Looking forward to us meeting, my friend.
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Post by essence on Nov 9, 2004 9:28:53 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
I cannot wait to meet up. Perhaps some Carlsberg during dinner would be good? I don't drink beer, but I am known to be a good consumer of Yeo's Chrysantemum Tea. How about I buy you a few rounds of Carlsberg in gratitude?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 9, 2004 9:32:26 GMT -5
Good day Eric. I cannot wait to meet up. Perhaps some Carlsberg during dinner would be good? I don't drink beer, but I am known to be a good consumer of Yeo's Chrysantemum Tea. How about I buy you a few rounds of Carlsberg in gratitude? Warmest regards, Tze Hou Hahaha, DEAL! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 9, 2004 19:48:36 GMT -5
Alright,
So far we got:-
• Khim – yes undeniably White Crane. • Hip-shaking – depending on how you do it, we might be looking at the same apple. • Jerking – Yes White Crane. All the major Fukien animals styles – crane has the most pronounced “jerking”. This, I am talking about Fukien crane i.e. pre-internalization. • Whipping – definitely White Crane. Fukien crane, again, whip in a separate manner from Fuzhou. Not sure, got to check with Martin, Yong Chun is more focused from waist up doing this. The legs are locked for stability and the spine stay straight. Fuzhou whips from legs up. Will move this topic to “Password” zone soon to continue. I noticed, correct me if I am wrong, NCK has got a slight dipping of the “kua” or waist and shoulders before you whip. Right?
Let me add more for comparison:-
• Inch power – I know Hung Gar do this in many of their “Single-finger” tension/release movements. Very short “spitting and swallowing”. • Punching – the reason why I am not getting involved in the “Fist” thread. Reserving it for investigation here. Most martial arts teach the twisting and straightening at the end method. To the old Sifus, this is incorrect. The usual “spinning bullet” analogy just doesn’t cut it with them. In White Crane, you twist and straighten well before contacting target and not just before. Shoalin, we talked about this before, twist about mid-point between you and opponent. This is to give more space for “joints locking” or “chaat Luk”. • Using of the “crane” beak in defensive/offensive situations. Mention White Crane and instantly the pix of someone standing on 1 leg with arms stretched with “beak” hands comes to mind. hahahahahahahahahahahaha ;D ;D ;D
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