|
Post by Eric Ling on Nov 8, 2004 2:55:07 GMT -5
Hi brothers in Kung Fu, I think the time has come for us to zoom in on the connection between White Crane and the other Southern Kung Fu. Particularly NCK and Hung Gar. White Crane is one of the accepted “chor” of your “Ngo Chor” so to what degree is White Crane practiced in NCK? I know you don’t do a dedicated White Crane form but I was told that White Crane techniques are interspersed throughout your system. More of this from all you Ngo Cho kuntaoshi? White Crane and Hung Gar are also suspected to be cousins, at least. It would make very interesting study to put all 3 under the same scrutiny. Agree? Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 8, 2004 3:37:29 GMT -5
Eric ni hao If my memory serves me right , our "khim" is the white crane signature. Also the hip shaking method adopted from white crane. What other.......? I let other NCK brothers and sisters to add. Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by essence on Nov 8, 2004 4:08:40 GMT -5
Good day everybody.
I too am very interested in this topic, especially the relationship between White Crane and Hung Gar.
Sorry if I sound blasphemous, but I have questions that I have been pondering and I feel the people on this forum have vast knowledge and resources and are open to discussion.
Would it be possible that Fang Chi Niang and Fong Wing Chun be one and the same person? After all, the surname is one and the same, and it is not uncommon that a person has more than one name, especially during that period.
Also very interested to know the Crane elements in Hung Gar and if they are the same in White Crane.
One question for Eric, does White Crane emphasise you yielding and deflecting much? When my Sifu teaches Crane application in Hung Gar, we are always taught to yield and deflect rather than to meet head on, thus, I am under the impression that Crane teaches deflection and yielding and is considered a softer external style. I also got this impression from Wing Chun, which many people have said is created from Crane techniques. Is this true?
Please forgive me if I sound ignorant and/or blasphemous.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
|
|
|
Post by Nataraya on Nov 8, 2004 4:59:02 GMT -5
History is full of fiction, and it is hard for us to verify names and stories. This certainly counts for Hung Kuen. Therefore I prefer to let names go and look more closely to ingredients. Ingredients much closer will explain the path of development. For the old timers between us – of this forum – you could have read in between the lines that Fukien province did play an essential role in Southern Martial Arts. The county/ area of Yong Chun did play an important role in the past. Crane Boxing is a very old version of Boxing, like Lo Han. Tiger Boxing was a popular hard style of Shaolin Boxing too. Combine these three and see what you get……..
Somewhere I try to explain that Hung Si Kwoen started with eight Crane, eight Tiger and Lo Han. Centuries after it did evolutes into the last version of Wong Fei Hung Fu Hoc Seung Ying Kuen. ( please this is my personal [current] vision !)
The Ten Tigers of Kwantung did have a serious impact on the development of Cantonese Boxing in totally. Probably other presentations of Crane Boxing – or maybe just another way of interpretation and Faat – were introduced. Leading to a much harder way of Crane skills. Also I see with my own students that it is hard for students to present the animals in a different Modus/ Geng/ Jin. The Hung Kuen player does his best to represent the styles trademarks, with the risk that the Crane becomes too Tiger-ish. I have many recordings showing this, it is up to the teachers to keep on correcting this with your student. Yes, sometimes this is a pain in the a**.
The tree have many twigs, whatever sort you are facing at. Not one of the twigs are the same, even the flowers and fruit will taste differently. Every moon the tree is changing, a natural process, nothing wrong with that. Its like us martial artist – and certainly with me. Every workout is also a lesson for me. Every letter I read on this forum, I learn. Over the many moons I will change too. So far I do not concern that much about the ‘ultimate’ because martial arts is about me. Like I said earlier in previous mail, it’s the process in your mind (San), that create growth. Some prefer physical actions, others prefer the wisdom of the ancients. Finally, it doesn’t matter, its all there.
Warm regards,
Evert.
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Nov 8, 2004 11:08:04 GMT -5
Hahaha Tze Hou,
You teacher did a good job teaching you proper kung fu etiquette. Delighted to know that you are a fellow Singaporean.
No you are in no way, improper, in posing those questions that you did.
Okay here is what I know:-
• Founder of White Crane is widely accepted to be Fang Chi Niang. This piece of info can be found in quite a few classical kung fu texts written during that period. Of course not everyone in the White Crane world agrees to this but my stream of White Crane subscribed to it.
• Founder of Wing Chun is held to be Yim Wing Chun and not Fong Wing Chun. The interesting thing to note is that Wing Chun is also the name of the Fukien city Yong Chun. That is, if you look at them written in Mandarin. Yong Chun was the hub of Fang’s White Crane. So much so that Fukien White Crane is also more commonly known as Yong Chun White Crane – Martin Watts’ style.
• Like Evert described, looking at names can be misleading sometimes and a better way is to study commonalities in techniques and principles. This is exactly what I am doing now. I said this before and that is, if you look at only Yip Man’s line, it is going to be hard to co-relate. Remember, there are at least 8 separate Wing Chun streams and some do show uncanny resemblance to Yong Chun White Crane. These are the ones that are on my radar screen.
• Hung Gar Crane, to me, is more Shaolin crane that Fukien White Crane. And Shaolin crane predates Fang’s White Crane. When I say that Hung Gar and White Crane are cousins, I was thinking Hung Gar in totality. Particularly the Hakka’s influence in the grand design of Hung Gar after Hung Hay Koon. Before talking to Evert, I was really still groping for the one focal point to examine this. Evert was the one who streamlined my focus to Tit Sin Kuen. Also keep in mind that many Hung Gar pioneers had contacts or were even in Fukien during that tumultuous period in Chinese history. Tien Ti Hu, the clandestine group fighting the Manchus started in Kwantung. But we also know that Fang was a member of this group. Just goes to show the close working of these 2 dialect groups in fighting the enemy.
• We must also be careful here again, for the fact that there are different streams of Hung Gar taught today. To put it broadly, the “new” or Wong Fei Hung’s Hung Gar and the old Hung Gar developed independently of Wong. The situation is similar to Wing Chun. So knowing which streams to look at is important.
Your Sifu is right. White Crane is “unorthodox” in the world of Southern Fukien Kung Fu because it preaches deflecting and yielding more than the other prevalent styles.
At least this is so in the Cranes that I studied – Fuzhou Ancestral and Whooping Crane.
I am training 2 gentlemen from New York here in Kuching. One of the first things they asked me was “What defines White Crane Boxing the most”?
I gave them the answer that my Sifu gave me:- Fighting from a woman’s perspective.
The hip shaking that Suhana talks about in his post; there is a theory that this is mimicking a woman with binded feet doing Kung Fu. Huge article written on this by some Taiwanese researchers.
Tze Hou, ask anything you want. I will try my best to give you answers. If not, I will seek advice from the many Kung Fu brothers and friends both here in Kuching and Singapore.
That is if that crazy Flying Dutchman don’t jump in there first.hehehe
;D ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Nov 8, 2004 11:24:34 GMT -5
Eric ni hao If my memory serves me right , our "khim" is the white crane signature. Also the hip shaking method adopted from white crane. What other.......? I let other NCK brothers and sisters to add. Cheers. Suhana Kor kor, "khim" is in Fukien? Meaning "Grip" like Chin in "Chin Na"? Are you talking about the way NCK deflect and grip an incoming punch in one movement? Xie Xie and Kan Pei.
|
|
Hungfist
Full Member
...gotta launder my Karma.
Posts: 120
|
Post by Hungfist on Nov 8, 2004 14:41:49 GMT -5
This is the way I understand how Hung Gar and White Crane are related - “Tiger and Crane Set” was developed by the founder of the Hung style Hung Hei Goon. He combined the tiger techniques he learned in the Fukien temple with the crane techniques of his wife Fong Wing Chun. Combining these Hung Hei Goon developed Fu Hok Pai. I agree with Nataraya today’s long version of the Fu Hok Seung Ying was developed by Wong Fei Hung.
Fong Wing Chun learned the White Crane system from its founder, Ng Mui Si Tai, a survivor from the Honan Shaolin Temple. When the temple was burned Ng Mui Si Tai went to the White Crane Temple and over the course of several years developed White Crane Boxing - Bak Hok Kuen. I have also heard and read that Ng Mui Si Tai is not a real person, but an alias used to fool the Manchu’s.
To my understanding much of it is legend. I read things from one source and the next one contradicts it almost totally. I don’t pretend to be a GF scholar, but I do like the legends. Sorry my Chinese isn't the best.
|
|
|
Post by konghan on Nov 8, 2004 15:47:54 GMT -5
Aside from kim, jerking & hip movement there is also the whipping power.
The "kim" ( grab ) is use to parry an incoming punch or an instrument in a circular motion it can also be use to grip on joints for joint lock.
|
|
|
Post by pitbull on Nov 8, 2004 19:11:02 GMT -5
its best to approach NCK as 'chap chai mee' you have meatballs,5spice chicken rolls,fish cake,shrimps,and also vegetables...and the sauce too...many different viands mixed into one delicious dish...i have to credit the genious wo compiled this pai.
crane is littered everywhere in NCK...50-60% of hand skills are crane. then taizu then monkey. the kim-so or grabbing lock(like in samchien cross and song sui upwards) is one example of this. also the sang sao or 2 hand(+1 leg sweep) is another,the chops and numerous pokes are obvious cranes too...the use of the 'crane's head' (wrist) is also a good example. i was told that there is a crane oriented chien called 'hor chien' and also a tiger chien. some NCK katas emphasize finesse and is crane-ish,while i see a high kata that emphasizes VERY exquisite footwork and is a monkey oriented kata. while the rigid and powerful samchien cross is called' 'taizu sanzhan shi er chuan' and is obviously a tribute to taizu although NCK is 'chap chai lo mee' or mixed noodles it still recognizes its roots w/o losing its identity in expressing them...this is what i observed. some lineages and groups also seem to favor one ancestor over the other in expressing. thats the beauty of NCK...its like a VW beetle that you can customize to your taste hehehe. if u are a refined build then you can express your body through more lofty katas and if ur solidly built then do a kata that makes good use of what you are ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D i am obe of those solidly built individuals but my mindset is set on ranged and defensive fighting...i think that should change lol unless i am forced to a corner in a confined space that is...just like last april 12
|
|
|
Post by pitbull on Nov 8, 2004 19:11:51 GMT -5
and yes, yo sin tzun to is a crane theory
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Nov 8, 2004 21:04:03 GMT -5
Hi everybody, So this is the quagmire when we inspect orally passed down history. All of us have conflicting version of what really took place. Personally, I think it is next to impossible to ascertain the definite historical events. The version that Hong Hay Koon founded his own style after merging his tiger with his wife’s Crane is truly a very popular story in most parts of Asia among the Cantonese. Fukien has their Fang Chi Niang taking her best student “Chen Shi”, a tiger boxer, as her husband. Then we got Ng Mui or Ngo Mei, who was among other things, reported to be one of the 5 escapees from Shaolin when the Manchu army raided and burned down Shaolin. When contended that this could not be true, since Ng Mui, was allegedly a nun another version declared that Ng Mui was actually a monk! In Fang’s White Crane tree, there is an Ng Mui recorded as a student of White Crane. And this Ng Mui taught a female named “Wing Chun” and so on,so forth. I say let’s leave “history” aside and shift concentration to techniques/forms and principles. Certainly more fruitful, IMHO. Already we have “khim”, hip-shaking and whipping power on the table – a very promising start. And it is against these that I hope to present White Crane’s approach. And another thing, I think we should spread the net to include Wing Chun and other Hakka styles. Something tells me we are all looking at the same elephant.
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Nov 8, 2004 21:12:32 GMT -5
and yes, yo sin tzun to is a crane theory Agree 100%. In White Crane this is referred to as "Ho Yo Shin". In fact in Fukien Chong Hok (Ancestral Crane) there is an entire form called "Yo Shin Kor". "Yo Shin" is also the signature concept of Zhun Hok or Shaking crane. This shaking is sometimes explained as mimicking a woman doing kung fu. The Zhun Hok and even my peho take this to be "dog shaking" power. A dog shaking itself dry........ Pit, love the way you make Ngo Chor sounds so yummy. So can I say that there are some "hao shiao" selling "kuay pun" as peho? hahahaha ;D ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Nov 8, 2004 22:04:19 GMT -5
Aside from kim, jerking & hip movement there is also the whipping power. Hi Kong, Yes very right. Whipping plays a monumental role in White Crane - not so much in Fukien but in Fuzhou Crane. The common "swallowing, spitting, sinking and floating" is really a generic principle found in almost all Southern Fukien styles CKF. Your NGK, my Tai Chor and Martin's Eng Choon all use this as the foundation of fa-jin. Fuzhou Crane, however, is distinguished by the other qualities. And one of this is "Whipping". You could even say that these other qualities are definitve. I have seen your NCK done and I must say the "Whipping" part is indeed very close to our "Tuang kin" except maybe for the stance. Sorry, I don't really want to discuss this here (under instructions from Whopping Crane elders) knowing that there is one White Crane conman visiting. Already he has damaged White Crane enough with his "interpretations" and the seniors/elders want to make sure he gets no more - not from this forum anyway. Ir you like, I could move this part of our discussion to the "password" area. Sorry, my friend.
|
|
|
Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 9, 2004 3:15:18 GMT -5
Suhana Kor kor, "khim" is in Fukien? Meaning "Grip" like Chin in "Chin Na"? Are you talking about the way NCK deflect and grip an incoming punch in one movement? Eric ni hao Yes, it's Fujian term, as NCK ancestral home is in Quan Zhou. It's the term for blocking and or grabbing. Hip shaking training, we used to called it "Hawaiian Hula-Hula." ;D To date, whenever I train this "Hula-Hula", my daughter will crack up laughing ;D ;D ;D Cheers. Xie Xie and Kan Pei.
|
|
|
Post by Nataraya on Nov 9, 2004 3:28:10 GMT -5
Please correct meif I am wrong, but I have the idea that this "shaking" is practiced in many other systems as well. For instance TSK and Chen Style Tai Chi, I see these skills back.
It should be interesting to start analyzing this phenomene in detail. Who is interested in doing this? OI am willing to join and start giving examples. Eric, where is the place for such discussion? And do I need to send you a letter for an eventual password?
Warm regards,
Evert.
|
|