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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 12, 2004 2:54:55 GMT -5
Good day Suhana. You mentioned Pangeran Diponegoro and I have never come across this name before. Could you explain a little more about this? Warmest regards, Tze Hou Tze Hou ni hao Ha, ha, ha. Diponegoro was a Javanese prince who fought the Dutch during the Java War (1825-1830). I've attached the site of his biography: www.geocities.com/Tokyo/3245/Dipo.htmFor the local, he is one of the favourite to be invited in this ritual. He is known to have high martial skill. But the difficulties if we invite him is not many people can understand as he speaks ancient Javanese langguage. What characters did you ever encountered in this ritual? Cheers.
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Post by essence on Nov 12, 2004 3:32:11 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao Ha, ha, ha. Diponegoro was a Javanese prince who fought the Dutch during the Java War (1825-1830). I've attached the site of his biography: www.geocities.com/Tokyo/3245/Dipo.htmFor the local, he is one of the favourite to be invited in this ritual. He is known to have high martial skill. But the difficulties if we invite him is not many people can understand as he speaks ancient Javanese langguage. What characters did you ever encountered in this ritual? Cheers. Good day Suhana. This is very interesting. Seems like the invitation of ancestors to come back into this world spans across Chinese, Thais and Javanese. I wonder how many more cultures practice this. The various gods and deities I have come across are Lian Hua San Tai Zi (like a little boy), Nezha, Sun Mo Kong, Ji Gong, Tua Dee Ah Pek and Sar Ya, and Zhong Kui. I have witnessed these rituals personally, but have probably seen more but never really attention to the others because there will be a multitude of mediums there. One thing I want to ask you. When you practice this, is there a ceremonial whip used to clear the way to invite the god? Also, I have noticed many mediums vomitting when the gods enter their body. People have told me this is because the medium eats meat and the god is throwing the meat out. He will then proceed to eat joss sticks and "wash" himself with the joss sticks. Are these also prevalent in your culture? Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 12, 2004 4:10:59 GMT -5
Good day Suhana. This is very interesting. Seems like the invitation of ancestors to come back into this world spans across Chinese, Thais and Javanese. I wonder how many more cultures practice this. The various gods and deities I have come across are Lian Hua San Tai Zi (like a little boy), Nezha, Sun Mo Kong, Ji Gong, Tua Dee Ah Pek and Sar Ya, and Zhong Kui. I have witnessed these rituals personally, but have probably seen more but never really attention to the others because there will be a multitude of mediums there. One thing I want to ask you. When you practice this, is there a ceremonial whip used to clear the way to invite the god? Also, I have noticed many mediums vomitting when the gods enter their body. People have told me this is because the medium eats meat and the god is throwing the meat out. He will then proceed to eat joss sticks and "wash" himself with the joss sticks. Are these also prevalent in your culture? Warmest regards, Tze Hou Tze Hou ni hao Nezha = Na Cha, Sun Mo Kong = Sun Go Kong, Zhong Kui = Chung Kui ? What about Er Lang Shen? For some people whose body being borrowed, yes they might vomit. We say, he is not "clean" enough. That's why he must experience this uncomfortable thing. But the other might not vomit at all. But at the end of ritual, the person will exhausted. Regarding ceremonial whip, if the master is based on Taoism, yes. But if the master based on other belief, he/she might not need this thing. Cheers.
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Post by essence on Nov 12, 2004 4:53:02 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao Nezha = Na Cha, Sun Mo Kong = Sun Go Kong, Zhong Kui = Chung Kui ? What about Er Lang Shen? For some people whose body being borrowed, yes they might vomit. We say, he is not "clean" enough. That's why he must experience this uncomfortable thing. But the other might not vomit at all. But at the end of ritual, the person will exhausted. Regarding ceremonial whip, if the master is based on Taoism, yes. But if the master based on other belief, he/she might not need this thing. Cheers. Hi Suhana. I have not seen Er Lang Shen before. Zhong Kui is an underworld god who catches demons. He was a scholar, but as he was denied office due to his appearance (his face was black), he committed suicide and became a god who catches demons. Ji Gong was a god who reincarnated as a monk to help the people. He often performed miracles and was known to always eat meat and drink wine. He has a special medicine too, whenever someone is very ill, he would rub his body (which was dirty) and this produce a black ball which could heal anything. And to elaborate further for the benefit of everyone, Tua Dee Ah Pek (literally, First and Second Uncle) are the two deities who come up from the underworld to claim the people whose time is up. That is their main duties. Their tell tale characteristic is their hyper-extended tongues and non-stop smoking (sometimes opium is offered to them). Sar Ya (Third Uncle), I do not know what his duties. Tell tale characteristics is when he comes up, the medium keeps crying and kowtowing. All very interesting to me. Care to share any more of your experiences? Very interested in Diponegoro after reading the website you posted. Seems like war heroes are often glorified and re-invited back into this world. Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 12, 2004 6:19:04 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao Yes, I know about Chung Kui. Some people say that he is more powerful than Kuan Kong. What is your view and experience regarding amulets? Cheers.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 12, 2004 6:22:55 GMT -5
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Post by essence on Nov 12, 2004 6:36:01 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao Yes, I know about Chung Kui. Some people say that he is more powerful than Kuan Kong. What is your view and experience regarding amulets? Cheers. Good day Suhana. The following post is controversial, and is only based on my personal experience. I have, at one stage, used Thai amulets for protection. The deity I chose was Pakawan, although I later added other ones, such as Buddha, Kong Peng, Pita and a Dang Gha. Although I tried to invoke Pakawan, I did not manage to. However, I have gotten into fights where, miraculously, I came away without any injuries. Coincidence or not I don't know. During the period that I was using Pakawan for protection, there was a daily routine that I had to do. Every evening, at 6 pm, I had to chant his mantra and blow on the amulet 3 times, and then put oil on the amulet. As most of the Thai deities can be used for good and bad, the way that you practice using their powers will affect how they work for you and how they affect you. Most of these deities, Pakawan, Pita and many more, are involved in Thai black magic as well, so it really depends on how you want it to influence you. Due to the way I used Pakawan (for fighting and personal protection), I became very anti-female and very hot tempered. This was not noticed by me, but my friends pointed it out. Although, I later added the Buddha together with the Pakawan, as I had dedicated a lot of time and energy to the Pakawan, the Buddha was not able to suppress the Pakawan's influence and my temper got worse, which led to the disruption of my life. I finally gave the Pakawan to a Thai temple. As for now, I am a Christian. I was a Christian before discovering Pakawan, but backslided, and now, have re-discovered myself in Christianity. However, due to my experience with the other religions of the world, Taoism, Buddhism and Thai amulets, I have a very open mind and I accept people's choices of religions and share my personal experiences with people who are interested. Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by essence on Nov 12, 2004 6:43:22 GMT -5
Hi Suhana. Unfortunately, I am unable to understand most of that. I can only understand basic Bahasa. Would you be able to elaborate further for me? He seems very interesting as well. As for Zhong Kui being more powerful than Guan Gong, I do not know. From my experience, Zhong Kui was very fierce and he was angry when he came "up" from the underworld. Guan Gong, I have heard, can be a very kind person when he "comes down". I suppose it is different with different mediums and the way they invoke the gods. More importantly, I think it is the duty that the gods cover, Zhong Kui has to be more fierce as he catches demons. Guan Gong, on the other hand, is worshipped in the belief that he makes business better. He is also worshipped for protection from harm and of course, in martial arts for his abilities and his undying loyalty to Liu Bei, which is a trait important to all martial artists. Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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jeff
New Member
A very rare Tiger!
Posts: 28
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Post by jeff on Nov 12, 2004 7:43:02 GMT -5
Good day Jeff. This seems very interesting as I have never come across a style which incorporates the spiritual aspect on the level before. Care to elaborate more if possible? On another note, I know of a Tiger deity that devotees worship called Hor Ya or Tiger Tooth. It is a white tiger. Is this one and the same? Warmest regards, Tze Hou essence, White Tiger (Bak Fu Pai) and Black Tiger (Hak Fu Muhn) are nothing alike in any concept ,so i doubt it would resemble anything we do. In Black Tiger's "Spirit Boxing" we bring about the spirit of past warriors into our bodies. The thing that makes this dangerous is that you bring the entire spirit both good and bad ,so you must be able to control the spirit. Gen. Kwan is a common spirit ,but it can be done with other spirits as well. It's better described as a willful possesion. My sihing had problems with it when he could not control the spirit that he invited into his body. Until this day he refuses to practice "Spirit Boxing" anymore. He talked about it with me and it really really freaked him out big time. He was the first and only non-chinese that my sifu had ever taught "Spirit Boxing" ,because of that my sifu is not sure whether he's going to teach me or not. I think he will it's just gonna take some time. I say this because he's talked about it many times to me ,and my sifu is not the kinda person to waste his breath talking about something he doesn't plan to teach. jeff:)
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 12, 2004 12:18:47 GMT -5
Shen Da and Hakka Boxing arts, is a frequently combination. I have some nice fottages of grandmaster Ip Shui (Chow Ga Tong Long) treating an UK patient, with some nice reactions.
I did collect some "Journal of Asian martial Arts" magazines, and were lucky to read magnificient article from the hand of Daniel Amos. He wrote a dissertation:
"Marginality and the Hero's Art: Martial Artist in Hong Kong and Guangzhou". 1983.
Daniel Amos have a doctor degree in Philosophy in Anthropology. He practiced Southern Praying mantis, and live amongst the Hakka and study their art closely.
I quickly scanned some text from that book, because I think it might interest others too.
page 224 -228:
“………… and give their loyalty to the most dominant member of their group, who acts as patron and master to his followers by sharing his knowledge of the art of shen da. In instrumental shen da brotherhoods, 40atear-is erected b.: a master who wishes to enroll students and to collect tuition fees. Shen da brotherhoods of this type are known in Hong Kong by the Triad society name of aou Jiang lw, (literally: to the river and lakes). Shen da brotherhoods of this latter type tend to be larger than the aftective shen da brotherhoods formed by adolescents, and they are frequently led by a middle-aged masters from lower class backgrounds. The most active practitioners of shen da in Hong Kong are adolescent males and young men, although females sometimes also practice the art.
Affective brotherhoods become shen da sworn brotherhoods when one sworn brother who knowns shen da convinces his “brothers” to follow his teachings. One shen da martial artist, a lower class youth who was initially hesitant about learning the art, joined two of his friends in following their classmate, who became their master. He described the formation of their shen da brotherhood in the following way: I was a very good friend with one of my “brothers” and also with the master. We liked to go fishing together and to share each other’s company. Sometimes I’d stay at his place as late as 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. Occasionally my “brother” would mention shen da to me and, as a matter of fact, I had heard that somebody in our group was teaching it. But I didn’t want to learn it because I thought there was something occult about it. Later on the master advised everyone of us to learn it and not to miss the chance. He said that shen da is useful simply on the grounds that one can defend oneself. Still, I didn’t want to do it. But once, I paid a visit to his guan (or place where the alter of the shen-da group is kept), and he persuaded me to burn an incense stick and worship at the altar. Since then I have formally become his student.
The same informant described his brotherhood’s shen da altar as a “family altar” (jia tan), which he explained served the purpose of guarding their small shen da “family.” He said that they practiced shen da only to protect themselves and their “family.” Because they treat shen da as “a kind of martial art, or defense technique, which has the function of cultivating the good will of friends,” they have not expanded their altar to accommodate paying students who wish to learn the art. That is, they have not wished to include strangers into their small, affective group.
To open their when da house or guan, the group followed the ritual regulations from two books that the young master of the group had hand copied in the aid-1970’s from a document in the possession of hit father’s father, who lived in Nanhai, a county close to the city of Guangzhou, in the People’s Republic of China. To establish their shen da house, a sacred placard (shen pai), seven Chinese feet and two inches in height, one Chinese foot one inch wide and nine Chinese inches thick was constructed. At the top of the sacred placard were written the words: *The power of the spirit is manifested strikingly." To the left and right of this sentence were written the phrases: “The sum is a far-seeing eye. The moon can catch words blowing in the wind.” Bordering the sacred placard on the left and right, a couplet was written on red paper:
“Literary accomplishment stabilizes the universe. Martial glamour dominates the southern heaven..” Over the top of the placard were placed the names of the twenty-four deceased masters of this particular shen da house.
Once the sacred placard of a shen da house is placed at the proper height; neither it nor the incense pot are to be moved, not even for the purpose of cleaning. The incense pot, in fact, should not be touched at all. There are other prohibitions concerning the altar. After refilling the altar’s tea and wine cups, for example, the cups most be put back in their original places. It is believed that if they are put back in the wrong places after refilling, quarrels will develop among the “brothers” of the shen da “family.”<br>
to be continued:........
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 12, 2004 12:20:09 GMT -5
Two pages more..........
The sacred placard and altar are to be set up during the first ma, or first seven day period. Seven ma or forty-nine days equal one guan. During the second me of the first guan a “report” is written to the first ancestoral master of the shen da family, and those persons who wish to become “brothers” of the family are initiated into the brotherhood.
The initiation rites begin with each initiate writing down his name and the eight characters of his birth date (year, month and day) on three sheets of yellow charm paper (fu zhi), which is then "submitted to heaven” (which is called “above”, shang mian or shang tou). The first sheet of charm paper is burnt, mixed with water, and then drunk. This is called “eating the thirty-six” because the mixture has to be drunk in thirty-six separate sips. The second yellow charm paper is put under the “family’s” incense altar.
The third yellow charm is used for the zang hun ji shi ritual in the “hiding the spirits and lodging them under a stone” ritual. Zang hun means to tell heaven that you want to learn the kung fu of the gods. Ji shi means to hide the soul under a stone on a hill so that no one will find it and harm it. To perform this ritual an initiate places the yellow charm paper with his name and birth date written on it under a “rock in the wilderness, that no living soul has ever touched.” He does this in order to “seek the adoption of the rock,” thereby depositing his three souls and six spirits under the guardianship of “Old Lady Rock” (shi mu niang niang) and “Old Man Rock” (shi fu ye ye). The “hiding the spirits and lodging them under the stone” ritual symbolizes the initiates’ departure from the social world and entry into the spiritual world. Once this part of the ritual has been performed, initiates become “children” of the rock gods and cannot accept the guardianship of anyone but gods and spirits. If a human adopts them or becomes their fictive parent, then da boxers believe that their guardian will be troubled by all kinds of strange diseases and may possibly die.
Before the initiates go to the hillsides to pick out a rock to hide their charm under, they must worship at the “family’s” altar by offering incense and candles to the twenty four masters of the “family.
They then must ask someone who is already a sworn brother of the shen da brotherhood to remain at the altar to make sure that the incense and candles that they have offered to the “ancestors” do not go out before they come back.
When the initiates return to the altar, the feng dao kung fu ceremony begins. The master lines up the initiates, and prepares to hack their bare bellys with a sword. Shen da practitioners say that the sword should be as sharp as a razor, because the sharper the sword the less pain. In actuality the swords used in these initiations are not always extremely sharp, although they are still capable of inflicting damage. The master speaks magical words to report to the first ancestral master that the initiates desire to join his “family” and tells the ancestor that the initiates are not afraid to be struck with the sword. Neither the master nor the initiates are possessed by spirits at this time. After the master had made his report, he strikes each initiate on the belly with a sword. One respondent said that being struck by the sword felt “...like a person’s hand does when it slaps a ball. It is painful, like being stung by ants.” Ideally after each initiate is struck with the sword there should only be a little blood, so that it does not flow out, but just oozes a little. Not to bleed at all may not be the best sign, and it is a bad sign to bleed heavily.
To become possessed by a god is called shang tong. The neophyte shen da learner, similar to a neophyte marijuana smoker (Becker, 1963), mist learn to recognize the signs of the altered state that he his seeking.
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jeff
New Member
A very rare Tiger!
Posts: 28
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Post by jeff on Nov 12, 2004 12:59:50 GMT -5
I have video of my sifu doing some spirit boxing ,i'm considering on whether i should post it here or not.
It's not something that we like to show.
jeff:)
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 12, 2004 14:02:57 GMT -5
Jeff, keep the clips first in your archive. I like to discuss this first with Eric before we are launching this. I have some very interesting material too, but I prefer to keep it (partly) locked.
I will contact you by PM.
Evert.
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 12, 2004 14:05:22 GMT -5
part III:
One shen da boxer described his first attempts at possession in the following way:
It was very strange. For the first night a god did not visit me, although I tried very hard and although my master helped me. We held an incense stick with our palms close together to await the descent of spirits. During the first night there was no sign of a deity before the stick of incense burnt out. The next time I decided that since standing did not work, I might as well do it in a lotus position. And that worked. I felt very elated when the deity descended on me. I’d never felt like that before. Originally, my palms were held fixed in front of me. Then suddenly, they began to move up and down, as in worshipping. I couldn’t stop the worshipping motion of my hands. It became so funny that I laughed ... Usually my breathing becomes very fast when I am possessed. That’s what happened that night ... when I am possessed my body gets very tense and feels like it is swollen. I remember the first time even my face got numb. It was as if some external sucking force was pulling at my skin and causing it to swell.
To acquire power, a neophyte shen da boxer must learn to harmonize his actions with the actions of the spirit that is possessing him. Many beginners are luan tong, because there is no coordination between the beginner and the spirit. The shen da boxer might want to strike upward with his fist while doing a set of kung fu, but the force of the spirit. might stop him, or force him to strike downward. The shen da boxer must lian tong or practice with the deity in order to unite with it (he tong).
Novice shen da boxers are not always able to recognize which spirit has possessed their “brothers.” In some shen da brotherhoods members are not allowed to ask a “brother” what spirit possessed him, because it would be disrespectful to the spirit. In some cases boxers do not even know which spirit has descended upon them, although experienced shen da boxers can nearly always tell. If a shen da boxer sincerely wishes for a particular spirit such as Sun Wu Kong (the “Monkey King” in Journey to the West, one of the four most famous novels in China), he may not necessarily be favored by the visitation, but a variation such as the “golden-haired monkey” may come instead. An initiated boxer can be positive, however that if he asks for the “Momkey King”, a completely different kind of spirit, such as Zhu Ba Jie (“Piggy” in Journey to the West), will not come instead.
Many shen da boxers in Hong Kong believe that the spirits that most frequently possess a boxer have personalities similar to the person that they possess. If a person has a quiet and stable temperament, then the spirits which visit him are usually of the sane nature. If a boxer is hot tempered, the spirits that descent on him will frequently be violent and active.
The experience of a boxer helps to determine what kind of methods he will use to call a spirit. If a boxer is a novice and is cultivating his ability to be possessed, he may burn incense and sit in a lotus position with his eyes closed, while meditating on the poetic lines of a “charm” used to call a certain spirit. An expert shen da boxer may just partly close his eyes and be able to see Hell, wandering souls, and unclaimed spirits. In emergency situations such as fights, initiated shen da boxers of any level of experience are able to immediately call for a spirit.
In the ultimate capitalist society, where the supreme social value is entrepreneurial achievement and self gain, the practitioners of shen da in Hong Kong, nearly all members of the lower social orders, see themselves as morally superior to their more “selfish, self-serving” social betters. They maintain an attitude of moral superiority because they believe that only those who follow higher ethical principles can practice their art for very long. One informant claimed that he
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 12, 2004 14:08:13 GMT -5
Finally, the last pages of my scann's. Sorry, it cost too much time scanning and editting.
***************
had gained strong powers f rot shen da because he held on t,) two firm principles: to defend his family and himself and “to save others in order to benefit humanity and history.”<br> Practitioners of shen da believe that they must act humbly to gain the protection of the deities. In most shen da brotherhoods, novices are taught that they should abide by the principles of their art and never show off with shen da. Shen da boxers will criticize persons who publically demonstrate their ability to perform the of shen da, such as being struck with hammers and swords and being punctured with long needles without bleeding. Most practitioners of shen da believe that boxers who are paid to publicly demonstrate their shen da skills are arrogant because they have used the deities for their own selfish purposes and, thus, have been disrespectful to them. Shen da martial artists believe that immodest shen da practitioners will be visited less and less by spirits and will have less and less strength when they are possessed.
They label persons of this type, “those who have deviated from the truth and entered evil ways” (zou huo ru mo). It is believed that persons who coutinue on this path will eventually become possessed by “false deities” (gia tong) and will most likely lose their minds. Shen da martial artists feel that some of the mentally ill persons wandering about on Hong Kong’s streets are insane for this very reason. The belief that persons who use shen da for selfish reasons will be punished enables shen da boxers to rationalize their own poverty and humble social positions. They have enormous powers derived from the spirit world, but they are prevented by the deities from improving their positions as humans is the social world. One informant explained this process:
Even though I have power, I cannot guarantee that my power will be of any economic use to me. Even if it is ineffective in momentarily improving my situation, it may not be beneficial to me in the long run. We can see as far away as a thousand miles, listen to what is it, the wind and forsee what will happen in the future. I can even read the letters you write at home. But we must abide by our art. If what you do with shen da is not necessary, then you shouldn’t do it. That is what is meant by ”abiding by the art.”<br> When I first came to learn shen da, I was still in primary school. I never did well on my examinations. I said to myself then, ‘If I know the art, wouldn’t I be able to see what is going to be asked in the exams?’ A man can easily steal pork from a meat stall if he knows the Art. Really, it can be done. For example, if I am hungry, I can summon a bowl of rice from a distant place and a bowl of rice will appear before me; but as a result, someone will lose a bowl of rice. But is this necessary? This is avarice! Frequent malpractice will surely be found out and is self-destructive. I was told of a story. There was a butcher who sometimes saw the pork in his stall hop and leap by itself. The meat would hop a number of times and then it would disappear. The butcher realized that there was something occult about it, so he stood at attention with a knife in his hand. The next time the butcher saw a piece of pork leap, he cut it sharply with his knife. The thief, who was in a distant place, at once felt a sharp pain in his hand, and a few drops of blood fell on to the butcher’s table. Afterwards, the thief’s hand was paralyzed for life.
Even though the overriding morality of shen da boxers is that they should “abide by their art” and only use their shen da to protect themselves and others and never seek personal gain from their art, practitioners of shen da do not feel that it is unethical to be reimbursed for healing someone. If a patient wishes to thank a shen da practitioner for curing him, he should give lishi, or money wrapped in red paper. There is no fixed rule on how much lishi should be paid,
Except that the amount of money should equal the numbers 16, 36, 72 or 108. If a person is poor, it would b a propitious sign (yi tou) for him to pay a lishi of 16t or $1.60. A shen da practitioner would theoretically be allowed to accept $1,600,000 from a wealthy man, but the patients of those who practice shen da in Hong Kong rarely belong to the upper classes, they art usually the friends and neighbors of shen da boxers, that is, persons of the lover social orders like themselves. When they engage in healing, practitioners of shen da use paper “charms” which are burnt to ash and given to patients to drink with water. These mixtures are called fa shui.
The charm for “malignant boils” is reproduced below. According to one informant, “malignant boils” have unaccountable causes, and even medical doctors trained in western medicine are helpless in treating then. The number of circles in the charm for malignant boils is fixed. The drawing of the circles in the charm must begin and end with the recitation of the following poem:.....................
and much more...............
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