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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 8, 2005 0:34:27 GMT -5
Okay folks, Our “Embedded Lohan” thread is making headway smoothly so I thought we look at the other major influential style; White Crane. Let not confine ourselves to just within Kung Fu this time. Oftentimes, we hear how White Crane played a prevailing role in the development of Karate. So let put everything under the scope and see what surface. To kick off, a White Crane technique "embedded" in Tai Chi Praying Mantis Kung Fu. Name of technique : White Crane Showing/Displaying Wings.
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Post by MightBHooked on Jan 12, 2005 10:38:07 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
In Shorinryu, we have the kata chinto and gojushiho. There are more kata that are said to have derived from white crane, but I'll start with chinto.
The kata chinto has a linear pattern that has one legged stances in it, that is said to derive from the crane.
Please give me some time and I'll dig up some more info on it.
Looking forward to your insight and possibly learning it's earlier influences.
Regards, Larry
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 12, 2005 10:53:55 GMT -5
Hi Larry, Thanks for the reply - for a moment there I thought nobody is keen to explore this. Okay, I got the chart of Shotokan's version. Is this the kata that you are talking about ?
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Post by MightBHooked on Jan 12, 2005 11:17:46 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
Thanks, that's the kata; with small variations in stance and from the one legged stance, we do a front kick not a side kick.
Regards, Larry
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Post by namsiulamkuen on Jan 12, 2005 14:30:08 GMT -5
Embedded white crane.....where do you start.
Every major southern system of chinese martial arts has been influence by white crane. Most recognisibly by the cranes striking arsenal—the striking with the end of the fingers. The open display of the hand to represent the wing of a crane and the light foot work. Hung ga has these techniques, so does tai chi, and everybody knows the influence of crane on wing chun...and I don't mean the story of Ng Moi watching a crane and an snake fight...or something.
NSLK
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 12, 2005 18:08:17 GMT -5
Hi Larry,
Found this written about Chinto - "borrowing" it here for our discussion. I hope Mr. Swift don't mind. ;D
Chinto
This kata is said to have been taught to Matsumura Sokon by a Chinese named Chinto, but this legend cannot be corroborated. According to a 1914 newspaper article by Funakoshi Gichin (1867-1957, founder of Shotokan karatedo), based upon the talks of his teacher Asato Anko (1827-1906), student of Matsumura Sokon):
"Those who received instruction from a castaway from Annan in Fuzhou, include: Gusukuma and Kanagusuku (Chinto), Matsumura and Oyadomari (Chinte), Yamasato (Jiin) and Nakasato (Jitte) all of Tomari, who learned the kata separately. The reason being that their teacher was in a hurry to return to his home country." (sic, Shoto, 1914).
It is believed by this author that the "Matsumura" in the above excerpt is a misspelling of Matsumora Kosaku, of Tomari. The fact that Matsumora Kosaku, is evidence that Matsumora may have also been taught this kata as well (Kinjo, 1999).
Now, what exactly is Chinto? There appears a form called Chen Tou in Mandarin Chinese (Jpn. Chinto, lit. Sinking the Head) in Wu Zho Quan (a.k.a. Ngo Cho Kuen, Five Ancestors Fist), which was a style popular in the Quanzhou and Shamen (Amoy) districts of Fujian (Kinjo, 1999). Chen Tou refers to sinking the boy and protecting the head. In the Okinawan Chinto kata, this is the first technique, but in the Five Ancestors Fist it is the last (Kinjo, 1999). However, this being said, this author has yet to see the Chen Tou form to make a comparative analysis. It is, however, worthy of further investigation.
There are 3 distinct "families" of Chinto in modern Okinawan karate: Matsumura/Itosu lineage (performed front to back), Matsumora Kosaku lineage (performed side to side), and Kyan Chotoku lineage (performed on a 45 degree angle). Looking at technical content, we can see that the Matsumora and Kyan versions are nearly identical, which is only natural since Kyan learned this from Matsumora.
*from The Kata of Okinawa Isshinryu Karate-do: An Informal Discussion on their Possible Origins by Joe Swift
[glow=red,2,300]Could one of our 5 Ancestors experts give us some info on "Chen Tou". Thanks.[/glow]
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Post by pitbull on Jan 12, 2005 18:32:43 GMT -5
he must be referring to 'ngo to tim tao'(fijien), 'wu tu tien tou'(mandarin) '5x sinking the head'(english)...its not the last kata in most NCK schools but it can be agreed upon that this kata is classed as an 'instructor's kata' and is an advanced kata with the distinctive chopping of the navel area and dual shoulder grabs. there is also a shorter variant called '3x head sinking' and is a shorter kata and which showcase some modifications as well..and is also an instructor's kata or 'gao-lien to'...the highest kata in our school(Konghan) and also in Bingkiam's is 'twe suat' F, or 'di sua' M, 'ground sweeps' E which showcases the distinctive and unique fujien scissors and how NCK expresses it.
hmmm interesting article...specially that it mentioned NCK.
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 12, 2005 18:48:55 GMT -5
Embedded white crane.....where do you start. Every major southern system of chinese martial arts has been influence by white crane. Most recognisibly by the cranes striking arsenal—the striking with the end of the fingers. The open display of the hand to represent the wing of a crane and the light foot work. Hung ga has these techniques, so does tai chi, and everybody knows the influence of crane on wing chun...and I don't mean the story of Ng Moi watching a crane and an snake fight...or something. NSLK Hi NSLK, Thanks for your comments. And frankly, your first statement seems to summarize the general feeling of most folks; where do we even begin? A good number of us, if not all, believe that White Crane is the other major seminal force in Southern CKF and Okinawa Karate. I find this concept fascinating. And collating White Crane to the other styles, I must admit, is a major personal fixation. This is not an easy attempt. To do an adequate job, one must understand both sides of the equation. The examples raised so far are clear. It is the “indistinguishable” that I find captivating. Hopefully, with players of so many disciplines on board, I could see a wider picture of this matter. Thank you.
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 12, 2005 18:55:35 GMT -5
Hey Pit, Thanks for that explanation. You can actually view the Wado version of Chinto kata here www.wadokikai.com/chinto.htm Take a look at tell me what you think from a NCK's perspective. Thanks.
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Jan 12, 2005 18:56:00 GMT -5
I have had a look around about 'chinto' and have found that it is known as 'Gankaku' in Shotokan. I managed to find one very poor clip of someone doing it (the quality was poor, not the performance). I must admit it does not resemble any form that I know but then I do not have the whole system . Unfortunately I cannot add any further information wrt. chinto. I will see if there is anything else I can find.
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Jan 12, 2005 18:59:59 GMT -5
Hey Pit, Thanks for that explanation. You can actually view the Wado version of Chinto kata here www.wadokikai.com/chinto.htm Take a look at tell me what you think from a NCK's perspective. Thanks. Having seen that clip, I must admit it resembles our Southern Taizu forms more than anything else, possibly with a bit of lohan.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 12, 2005 19:07:35 GMT -5
i cant view the clip!!! stupid linux... anyways...i think crane,taizu and lohan are very redundant in most japanese and okinawan te's...just basically shows the very close cultural heritage of the people of fujian and okinawa... fatman: did you see the karateka during the just concluded competition? there are quite a number of karatekas(obviously okinawan) who joined the just concluded nanshaolin tourny.
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Jan 12, 2005 19:10:37 GMT -5
i cant view the clip!!! stupid linux... anyways...i think crane,taizu and lohan are very redundant in most japanese and okinawan te's...just basically shows the very close cultural heritage of the people of fujian and okinawa... fatman: did you see the karateka during the just concluded competition? there are quite a number of karatekas(obviously okinawan) who joined the just concluded nanshaolin tourny. I did notice that. I was interested to see how they went, and they seemed to do OK. Their routines seemed to be very short though.
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Post by pitbull on Jan 12, 2005 19:22:30 GMT -5
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 12, 2005 19:46:52 GMT -5
Having seen that clip, I must admit it resembles our Southern Taizu forms more than anything else, possibly with a bit of lohan. Hi Fatman, Interesting that you should see Southern Tai Zu. Can I ask; do you do Tai Zu as a separate entity or are you referring to the Tai Zu component of Wu Zu? I see quite a bit of Lohan in the kata. I think there is a site with some bunkai of this form. I’ll look and post the link if I find it. Thanks.
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