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Post by Nataraya on Nov 17, 2004 6:55:45 GMT -5
Below interesting links for those who loved dummy work"
Book:http://www.usuarios.com/ib307618/munieco.htm Video: 1:http://www.usuarios.com/ib307618/v_munieco1.htm 2:http://www.usuarios.com/ib307618/v_munieco2.htm
Pedro Rico (Choy Lee Fut) lineage: Ho Ngau.
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 17, 2004 7:02:37 GMT -5
More on dummy work: A part of my colleague's reply. He practice Tai Ji Mei Hua tang Lang, and sells a book and DVD of the dummy form as practiced in their system: *************************** Here are some thoughts that straightly are my own and do not represent any other opinion but mine. Praying Mantis training is IMHO one of the most peculiar practice in TCMA. Almost every aspect of the art is an art onto itself. Take Kao Da (a.k.a. striking 3 stars) for example, it is one of the most versatile and sophisticated training methodology in TCMA. It can be used to just train an attribute building tool such as withstanding impact throught out the body. It can also be use to refine close quater combat techniques such as takedowns. You can actually use the Kao Da techniques to fight. Most TCMA style today only use it for forearm conditioning. But not the case with Mantis. I would venture to say as far as I am aware, Kao Da in Mantis as methodology is one of the most comprehensive in traditinal Kung Fu. It is an art onto itself. So whether it is an attribute builiding tool, a skill set building tool, or both depends on the teacher's experience, perpective and insight. The same goes to Tanglang's Shou Fa (or San Shou whatever label that you prefer) and Quan (forms). Wooden dummy practice is widely known to be associated with the legendary southern Shaolin and subsequently it's various schools. Most notable is of course the Wing Chun clan(s). In my article concerning CCK TCPM wooden dummy training, I discussed the training from the point of view that it is an art more so than a form. One could say that it is an art encapsulated in a form that is distinctive with NPM flavor especially that of TJPM style. I take into consideration of the background, dynamics of TJPM and the wooden dummy training, anatomy of the wooden dummy, attribute cross training, fundamentals, power generation, and beyond the training. This all goes to show that why it is in my mind wooden dummy training from CCK TCPM perspective is an art onto itself. BTW, you can find a shorter version of the article in the Mantis Quarterly. Surely there is nothing wrong with it using the wooden dummy as only an attribute building tool just as some school would use Taiji push hands, Wing Chun Chi Sao, etc... Yet it is personal growth. GM Chiu saw the potential of a common good with the wooden dummy training. He realized his vision of a special art form which he encapsulated it in a form. So now we as mantis practitioners all can enjoy his intellectual property, a gift if you will, even when he had passed into the infinite for many years. That I believe is the reason why we all appreciate the masters and the arts that they past down. A form is more than just a training tool, it can be but there are so much more to it. A form is a physical selfless sharing of intellectual prosperity and it is unique to TCMA. Mantis108 PS I don't mean that not using form as teaching is being selfish. But it is unique to use form to teach in TCMA. forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=d4652857b7031eac1bd7858b5a998a1f&threadid=27690&highlight=Mantis+dummyforum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=d4652857b7031eac1bd7858b5a998a1f&threadid=26997&highlight=Mantis+dummyforum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=d4652857b7031eac1bd7858b5a998a1f&threadid=23066&highlight=Mantis+dummyWarm regards, Evert.
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Hungfist
Full Member
...gotta launder my Karma.
Posts: 120
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Post by Hungfist on Nov 18, 2004 19:11:08 GMT -5
[ These remind me of plum blossom poles, there were more of them of course, and we used them for balance training and stance training. I used to do this back in the early 80's.
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 23, 2004 3:22:24 GMT -5
Gentlemen, This forum is (for me) a source to exchange information, serious information. Much are being said, and even more false information is spreading. Eric and I discussed this over a long timer, and we both believe in filtering information. Our contacts are broad, and over the years selected. Below a compilation of text as derived from a very fine source: Tai Ji Praying Mantis forum from our colleague Robert Hui. He belongs to one of the few that are able to look non emotional to statements and to research out facts. He is a strong believer of tradition, but open for new developments too. I hope you can enjoy the material from his forum: The dummy skills as practiced in Tai Ji Praying Mantis: When Sigung was training as a young disciple in the temple in Shantung, he trained with a rudimentary wooden dummy. He practiced mostly loose movements with it. They were largely Long Fist techniques. I believe it wasn't even strung together in a form. Later he relocated to Macao, where he joined a brotherhood with 12 other people in a special ceremony. One of his 12 sworn brothers was Chu Chun Man, who was a Wing Chun practitioner. Sifu Chu owned a Kwoon, which had a Wooden Dummy. Sigung was inspired by his brother that he combined the Tai Tzu Men and Taiji Praying Mantis Techniques to created this form. The prototypical version was quite "away" from the Dummy, but the definitive version which is in the book is much more “sticking” to the Dummy. Perhaps it was the Wing Chun "inspiration" that we now enjoy this unique legacy of a Grandmaster. "I understand that Grand Master CCK studied martial arts intensively with Monks prior to studying TJPM." Yes, he studied at the "Gi Chong Ji" (Temple of the Canon of Wisdom) on Mount TaiDzai about 10 years. He served and studied under his 2 teachers until they both passed away. I believe he studied Taizu Men Kung Fu which has both Changquan (long fist) and Duan Da (short strikes). Taizu Changquan (Grand Emperor's Long Fist) is a very famous northern long fist style. It is believe that the first emperor of Northern Song dynasty (906 - 1279 CE) created this form out of 32 moves (Duan Da). It is recorded in General Chi's book. According to Sigung, there used to be only short strikes as a teaching format (Duan Da or Sau Fa ). It was pretty much after Song Taizu then we started to see the long fist as a format became popular. What we have in our system is the Taizu Duan Da otherwise know as Sau Fa. There are 64 of them listed in Sigung's curriculum. But as he mentioned, there are in fact myraid of Sau Fa. 64 is 8x8 which is represention of the Bagua (the 64 hexagram.) One starts with these 64 but you get endless ways of changing. A general rule of the thumb is that for each moves you will see about 3 to 5 counters and/or anti counters (kind of like the plum blossom). It really is a free flow of combat elements and playing chess with your body at ligthening speed. "Along with the Wooden Dummy Form Grand Master CCK also introduced a significant self-defence curriculum from his original martial arts studies with the monks." Taizu Men Duan Da (Sau Fa) was his introduction into the CCK TCPM. If I am not mistaken the empty hand vs dagger and the sword vs saber was from the same soure (the temple). of interesting note is that it would seem that other mantis styles has something called Kau Da which is basically the 2 star exercises (impact training) that we do. Some of these Kau Da are in our Duan Da but is training differently. I speculate that Sigung might have felt that it is too repetitive to practice both. So he went with the Duan Da. For those that are interested in the book I like to present the content: The Taiji Praying Mantis Wooden Dummy Training By Robert Hui Last updated April 15, 2002 Introduction Background Story to the Taiji Praying Mantis (TJPM) Wooden Dummy Form Dynamics of TJPM and the Wooden Dummy training Anatomy of the Wooden Dummy Cross Training With the Wooden Dummy Fundamentals of the Training Power Generation Beyond Training Appendix: The TJPM Wooden Dummy Book Warm regards, Evert. *********************** some extra dummies: www.thewarrior.com/warriors/index.htm***********************
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 23, 2004 3:28:29 GMT -5
Here's a post I found on the CyberKwoon forum concerning the benefit of using a Wing Chun Style Wooden Dummy. It's remarkably similar in thinking to the TJPM wood dummy form concepts.
***********************
As a training device, it teaches particular angles, power generation that many styles do not do. Think of it as providing conceptual & physical obstacles to flow around or manipulate. I totally agree with you on this part, the most common misconception about wing chun mok jang chong training, is that it`s a arm toughening aparatus, although it will surely make your arms stronger the main purpose of the dummy is to teach the concepts of : ( in no particular order) 1. Space awareness 2. Proper use of power 3. Spacial realtionship between your arms 4. Body positioning 3. Center Line concept etc... the list goes on, most important is that with this apparatus we are only limit by our imagination... you don`t have to be a wing chun expert to benefit from this... anyone with an open mind can develop an extensive amount of attributes, there are no specific guidelines . From my part i know 2 different dummy forms, one systemize by grand master Tam Lai ( yip man student ) and the widely known Yip Man 116, but we go beyond that I have my students practice boxing, hook drills, uppercut drills, pak da, closing the gap, huen sao drills etc.. and a lot of freestyle it`s very good to keep in mind that a dummy is only means to an end , it posses the problem you have to find the answer, the trick lies in the proper use of the MIND.. remember that the mind is like a parachute, it can only work when it`s open
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 23, 2004 3:35:44 GMT -5
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 1, 2004 2:50:24 GMT -5
Eric,
Are you able to bring the pictures – as attached in the thread Kung Fu Films – back to this thread? These were meant to show more variations of dummy work and a method to practice claw and wrist strength.
The dummy one is a shot from the film "Challenge of the masters", a workout between Lok Ah Choy and Wong Fei Hung (if I remember it well). The dummy lay out, is rather unique to me and i thought worth to look at.
The second picture is the training with jars. We have this skill also but then with fine sand in the jars. Hakka systems use a more massive wooden piece and train their claws (Dragon) with it. I will try to get a snapshot of that one too.
At the end I will hope to fill this thread with all kind of information to conditioning (more specific) your favourite skill.
Thank you,
Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 1, 2004 3:17:37 GMT -5
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 5, 2004 6:45:04 GMT -5
Errrh another "conditioning" picture from Evert. Evert, you're sure the guy is not just getting the Sh#t beaten out of him?
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Post by pitbull on Dec 5, 2004 18:13:47 GMT -5
lol...
some directors went all the way and made sillt outlandish conditioning routines lol
may not have pictures but some people in fujian(NCK) bang their forearms on the corner of the wall...its sharp...i also do this sometimes but on a rounded filleted corner here in the office...its not as painful thisway hehehe they even do it w their shins....OUCH
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Post by Suhana LIM on Dec 12, 2004 20:22:07 GMT -5
lol... some directors went all the way and made sillt outlandish conditioning routines lol may not have pictures but some people in fujian(NCK) bang their forearms on the corner of the wall...its sharp...i also do this sometimes but on a rounded filleted corner here in the office...its not as painful thisway hehehe they even do it w their shins....OUCH Pitbull ni hao Don't complain lah, just do and enjoy ;D. Sharp or rounded corner, they are same, nice Cheers.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 20, 2004 10:54:58 GMT -5
Yesterday I spoke with Martin Watts [Yong Chun White Crane] about conditioning and the use of instruments. I remember that I saw Ear Plates during my visit to lama grandmaster Lo Wei Keung. Also i remember that I saw them in a magazine and thought to attach that photo. My question is, what is the name as given in Fukien province for that training tool? (please in mandarin). The same characters/ name as in Northern Lama Pai? Kindest regards, Evert.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 20, 2004 11:04:43 GMT -5
Below the Stone version as used in Yong Chun White Crane. Especially for the roundhouse punches. Note: Without permission (yet) from Martin Watts, I have published this piece.
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Post by Gojumaster on Dec 20, 2004 11:24:31 GMT -5
Evert, In Goju-Ryu, we call this a Stone Lock / Ishi Sashi . Best Regards, Russ Below the Stone version as used in Yong Chun White Crane. Especially for the roundhouse punches. Note: Without permission (yet) from Martin Watts, I have published this piece.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 20, 2004 11:27:31 GMT -5
Some more information and snapshots:
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