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Post by Nataraya on Oct 28, 2004 10:22:50 GMT -5
Source: The article below is extracted from Taiji Praying Mantis forum. An explanation from Tai Ji Praying Mantis teacher: Robert Hui.
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Shaolin Authentics' Background ...
Shaolin Yi Bol Zhen Chuan (Shaolin robe and bowl authentic transmission) is a manuscript supposedly by Shengxiao Daoren/Hsing Hsiao Daoren (mid-1700). However, there is a possibility that this date isn't correct. It could be a later date which is 1856 CE since there is a handcopy out there that has " 5th year of Xian Feng (1851 - 1861 CE)" on the cover. Having said that it is entirely possible that Shengxiao's student(s) [possibly Fuching Daoren] or acquaintances could have copied the orginal at that later date.
Shengxiao claimed to have first learned from Fuju and later learned from another Shaolin monk who resided not at Songshan.
There are copies that go by the title "Duanda Michao" (short strike confidential). At the 4th scroll of the this version there is a supplimentary introduction, which is "Re-edited Edition of Arhat exercises and short strike introduction". It is possible that the book was originally name "Arhat (Luohan) exercises and short strike". BTW, Shengxiao claimed a student took his original work, thus he rewrote another one out of his "memory".
The Shaolin Yi Bol Zhen Chuan is divided into 4 scrolls:
1) Shaolin Yi Bol Zhen Chuan (same name) is theory and such things
2) Illustrated Shaolin Luohan short strikes is about hand to hand combat
3) Illustrated Shaolin Luohan weaponary is about weapon usage
4) Illustrated Shaolin Luohan Gong is about internal exercise. This is the famous 18 Luohan Gong.
In HK Seven Star lineage passed down by GM Luo Guangyu, there seems to have 5 scrolls in which the 5th scroll is herbal medicines and treatment for various broken bones, cuts and impact injuries (Die Da Yi Yue). No other version that I am aware of have this 5th scroll.
The version that I have, courtesy of Tainan Mantis, is IMHO a portion of the Shaolin Authentics. It was published by Wang Yifu in 1934. Unfortunately, it is full of typos and missing pieces.
Shaolin Yi Bol Zhen Chuan seemed to be somewhat of a "proof of athenticity" among the mantis system(s) particularly among the 7 Stars circle. Of course there are debates about the significances of it. As you can see that Luohan Gong is part of the Shaolin Authentics. It is of note that Not all lineages of Qixing Tanglang has the Luohan gong form. It is safe IMHO to said that 18 Luohan Duanda is what inspired the name Luohan Tanglang. The Luohan Gong is just part of it. Many of the Mainland Qixing exponents don't seem to have the actual forms but they certainly use the theories in the Shaolin Authentics. But then again, there is Huo Ruiting (sp?), who has produced a series of Qixing VCD, claims to have learned the forms (first 7 + 2 and the last 9 roads of Duanda) outlined in Shaolin Athentics. I am not sure if he also teaches the Luohan Gong.
It is of note that GM Liang Xuexiang has a Neigong pu, in which the content seems to be the 18 Luohand gong. It is quite curious that LGY's Kung Fu brothers don't seen to have it at all. That remains a bit of a mystery to me.
Warm regards,
Robert Hui
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 28, 2004 10:39:54 GMT -5
More Lohan materials from Evert........ Pix #1 - Northern Lohan. This is NOT Honan Shaolin Lohan. Honan Shaolin is Fo-jia and N.Lohan is Shu-jia. Although they do share much parallels in techniques etc... Northern Lohan is linked to JinWu, I think. Pix#2 - Southern Lohan. I have seen Lohan done in this manner in Tai Chor Boxing. Refering to Southern Tai Chor. Pix#3 - Very interesting Evert. The page is from Liu's Feeding Crane. Here we are talking Lin DeShun's line. They also claim a blending of Lohan and White Crane and traced this all the way back to Fang Chi Niang herself. My question is this; if this is true, wouldn't what they do look like Martin's Crane. Yong Chun White Crane, for a fact, predates Lin DeShun's Feeding Crane. Having said that, this is another Fuzhou Crane. Lin was Fuzhou. In fact Lin, Ling, Lim and Lam are all the same. Spoken in different dialects and sometimes spelled differently in English that's all. They have a total of 21 forms. A couple of their forms are dedicated "vibrating" crane forms which are very seldom seen outside their own family circle. As far as I know, there is no book of any kind published on Whooping Crane. There is one, published in China recently, with one Whooping Crane form contributed by Ruan Dong. This chap is all Wu-shu and he does'nt count. Not recognised by the old lines. His form is a "salad" so-called Whooping Crane form.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 28, 2004 11:03:17 GMT -5
I quickly extracted some information from the Tai Ji Mantis forum: On a side note: Did you know that Seven Star Praying Mantis changed the name from Lo Han Tang Lang? I asked this forum, why they decided to change that name. My question to that group: “…………I realize that this is NOT the thread to launch this question, but decided to do so because its about Mantis Boxing. For several months now, something kept me busy in relation to Praying Mantis Boxing. I hope that this letter will not be seen as offensive. Purely to fill in the many holes in the understanding of Chinese martial arts. First of all, I am not a Praying Mantis practitioner. My knowledge truly stops with Bung Bu and Ba Zhou. My question have to deal with Lohan Mantis Boxing. Why – and when – was th name changed from Lohan Tong Long Kuen into Chat Sing Tong Long Kuen? Was it to intent to make the style appear more philosophically? And, what are then the typical Seven Star signs in comparison with the other branches……….. As described in the thread “In the Beginning”, two sections were clear: ”Lo Han Moon and Wei To Moon. Lo Han is heavily drowned in Southern Martial Arts, which is easy to remember. Looking to the name, I can see the principles and methods more clear. When I look to Hong Kong seven star I can see the Lohan clear, and wonder why Chat Sing….. Please interpret this letter not as offensive. Kind regards, Evert………………”<br> Evert, are you sure you want to go there ? I think this turn of events took place in Hong Kong which was like the hub of 7-stars. Singapore's 7 Stars has got another story to tell.......
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 29, 2004 9:16:24 GMT -5
Eric, nothing wrong asking why they did change the name? What's wrong with the name Lo Han? In fact - if you have seen Hong Kong way of doing Seven Star - then it is clear. Why changing identity? There must be more behind it, just interested in answers........but they never gave me a clear answer, only other Tang lang practitioners said: "we are wondering too".
Oh yes,
Two Lo Han teachers on Taiwan are/ were:
Shang Tung Sheng (originally from Hopei province),
and
Li Ching Han (originally from Kwantung province),
Familiar names?
Warm regards,
Evert
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 29, 2004 14:14:13 GMT -5
Sifu Lam Siu Lap learned first martial arts from her father, who was well known in Choy Lee Fut and Hop Ga. Then she start learning Lo Han men from Suen Yuk Fong, for over 20 years . In that time she learned the three important broadsword forms from Suen Yuk Fong, namely: 1) Swallow pierces the cloud broadsword, 2) Foot Warrior Broadsword and 3) Wrist aiming broadsword.
The “swallow pierces the cloud” is the most difficult technique with employs extremely high jumps and rebounds. Agile footwork and body movements. Regrettable no one really masters the broadsword now because of the difficulty involved in its training. By comparison the Foot Warrior Broadsword is much more wide spread. The wrist aiming technique concentrates more on attacking your opponents wrist.
Kind regards,
Evert
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 30, 2004 21:23:35 GMT -5
Some pix of the late Sifu Huang from "LuoHan Men". Sifu Huang was a direct student of Sun Yuk Fong - the founder of "Luohan Men". The late Sifu Huang was a Chinese Kung Fu hero involved in training Chinese boxers to fight japanese in China. To read more about Luohan Men, you can go to home.ust.hk/~su_shao/ The full story in Chinese only.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 30, 2004 21:28:28 GMT -5
羅 漢 門 格 言 空身獨操 如面對勁敵 嚴每一動作 如刃切身 常警心曰非遊戲事乃生命關至 使夢寐成戰 心目皆兵 久而久之 內外如一 運用自然 無心舉動 亦成規矩 蒼猝出手 盡是訣竅
For those who read Mandarin, "Luohan Men" training guide from the same website.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 1, 2004 6:28:39 GMT -5
In all our discussions on Lohan Boxing, we left out one segment that, to me, is really fascinating.
“Dien” Lohan or roughly translated to “Crazy or Mad” Lohan.
Within Shaolin, I have not heard of this done in an empty-hands form. The only “mad” is in the stick play. Even then, the name reads “Fung Mo” or “Crazy Devil” and not “Crazy Monk”.
I know that “Dao Pai” - the style created by GrandMaster Chan Dao consists of many “Dien” Lohan forms.
Those of you with access to magazines like New Martial Heroes, Wu Lin and Tang Shou magazines published in Hong Kong in the 70s and 80s must have come across these.
In one issue of NMH, a Sifu Su demonstrated a Dien Lohan form.
The opening salute, Ming with a lifted knee, reminds me of Shaolin Lotus form salute.
In Lotus form, the hands are opened – symbolizing holding of a Lotus flower.
Anybody with more on this?
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 1, 2004 7:17:11 GMT -5
Eric,
So far I know that Hung Fut contains a Mad form. But what is mad? A cripple form? Some will say that TSK look rather mad?
Also are you willing to scan that opening picture "Ming with a lifted knee, reminds me of Shaolin Lotus form salute". Further, I am not sure what you mean with Shaolin Lotus salute. Illustration and some text will help tremendously. Thank you.
I was once taught "Shi Pa Lo Han Sau" or the 18 hands of Lohan. The openeing and closing remiond me very strongly of your description. I was so surprised to read that the late Siu Hon San taught this form in Singapore.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 1, 2004 7:39:00 GMT -5
Ha Evert,
The only piece of equipment that I am still short is a scanner here in Kuching. Going back to Singapore in the next couple of weeks and I will grab one from there.
As I am typing this, I have a magazine opened up to a form called "Bai Fen" the "8 segments" form from Martin's Yong Chun Crane! How I wish I could post a little of this form for all to see.
The Lotus Salute :-
The right knee in a lifted position.
The right hand opened up like holding a ball with the thumb facing out. The hand comes up to chin area.
The left hand, in exact same formation, is placed along centerline of body. Only now, the fingers are facing down with the thumb nearest your crotch.
This salutation is known simply as "Hand Embracing Lotus Flower" or in Fukien "Chiew por Lien Huay".
Chiew = hand por = embracing lien huay = lotus flower.
This form of salution, to my knowledge, is only done in Fukien Shaolin Ven. Sek's line.
No, I don't think Dien is a cripple form like your Hung Fut's "4 Cripples".
I always thought it is based on the old Chinese Kung Fu saying "Random Fists Could Kill A Kung Fu Master" .
I just need someone to confirm this.
The Master Su's form looks like a typical Southern Cantonese form with techniques like :-
Throwing ball into the waves Presenting Tiger Hiding the Dragon Horizontally sweeping a thousand armies
etc etc.........
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 1, 2004 7:57:21 GMT -5
I am afraid that I can't get the picture straight, as a mad man I try to translate your words in a gesture but no "ringing of the bell'. Strange enough the name sounds familiar, but the hand pattern is not clear.
A scanner is a must to give the reader an impression/ glimpse of what you mean. Besides this it is lovely to collect nice old martial arts pictures. A love we shared.
This discussion trigger an older project of me, investigation of the hand gestures in martial arts. In TSK there are several hand gestures with mudra hand patterns, meant to facilitate a specific energy. But that's for later, and maybe this should be done in a closed door environment.
And about the "mad" thing, yes there are many "rare" skills and techniques practiced in the arts. This make it all so interesting.
Take care,
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 1, 2004 8:36:45 GMT -5
A scanner is a must to give the reader an impression/ glimpse of what you mean. Besides this it is lovely to collect nice old martial arts pictures. A love we shared. This discussion trigger an older project of me, investigation of the hand gestures in martial arts. In TSK there are several hand gestures with mudra hand patterns, meant to facilitate a specific energy. But that's for later, and maybe this should be done in a closed door environment. And about the "mad" thing, yes there are many "rare" skills and techniques practiced in the arts. This make it all so interesting. Take care, Okay Okay Su Su, I will get a scanner. Need my Finance Minister (the wife) to approve the purchase order first. Okay, I know I am hopping again. But here goes ;- In Hung Gar you do a lot of one finger tension techniques in your forms. What is your story behind this ?
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 1, 2004 8:58:52 GMT -5
Eric, I was once taught "Shi Pa Lo Han Sau" or the 18 hands of Lohan. The openeing and closing remiond me very strongly of your description. I was so surprised to read that the late Siu Hon San taught this form in Singapore. Evert are you sure "Siu Hon San" is a person ? Ven. Sek students, after they "graduated" , started their individual Kung Fu schools. And some of these are :- Siao Hua San Siao Chong San Siao Hong San * Siao Teck San Siao Tin San Siao Joo San (my Sifu's school) etc etc..... Could your info be Siao Hong San-a Shaolin School? I am sure they do "Lotus" and in most Shaolin School, "Lotus" and "Lohan" are taught together. Off course, we all share one common form and that is "Yi Ki Muay" or "One twig of Blossom". Thanks.
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 1, 2004 9:34:29 GMT -5
On the photo sequence, you see Sifu Siu Chien Hung – daughter of the late Siu Hon San. She is doing a part of the form known as the 36 hands of Lo Han. It looks so close to the 18 hands of Lo han that I have learned. The opening (and ending) salute – not presented in the magazine – is: lifting theright knee high, and both palms in front of your chest.
Probably 36 is the count for the right and left hands skills. Probably we count the original postures?
In that particular article they say about Lo Han Boxing.
Lo Han exercises are formed by blending the main foot styles of martial arts with the coordination of various punching styles and palm skills.
The set is divided into six sub groups and thirty six exercises. The exercises lay equal emphasis on hardness and softness. The foot stances are the Horse style, bow style, T style, Imaginary style, sneaking style and the prancing style. Their palm skills are penetrating, parrying pushing aside and dividing. Added to these is simple jumping….
Personal this does not fit the form, completely. The pattern that is been walked is Siu Sap Tji, or a small cross pattern. There are postures –one leg stance – in which is hard to balance due to the hard power at that moment. Personal I think the functionality of the form is not high, so I would label this set as a novice form. My students do not practice this set anymore, but my old Shaolin Kempo school kept this form in their curriculum.
Kind regards,
Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 1, 2004 10:11:36 GMT -5
Evert,
Lifting the right knee and saluting with palms together is done in other styles also.
Besides some Southern Cantonese styles, this formation is also found in Tai Shing Pek Kwa.
Have you heard of "Lup Hup Wai Thor Mun" - this is actually a Northern style.
Lup Hup means 6 combinations. Wai Thor is the name of a Chinese deity.
I do 2 forms from this style with almost the same kind of salute.
The Dien Lohan salute is done with the "Ming" hand formation which is unique.
Don't think I've seen this anywhere else.
Your "18 Lohan Hands", are they long or short hands ?
According to my late Shaolin Sifu, 108 Shaolin is taught in many styles in various configurations.
Only Shaolin do the complete 108 and as explained in Ven. Sek website, only 4 of his disciples acquired them in full.
Even the so-called revamped Shaolin in China cannot do the full 108.
36 long hands 36 short hands & 36 Xi Nu Lohan..
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