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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 12, 2004 4:29:54 GMT -5
Good day Suhana and Pitbull. Exactly right. The grappler will have his own hypothesis on how to take you down, therefore, no amount of discussion would be fruitful. I have seen a video of the famous William Cheung of Wing Chun grappling on the floor during a fight. Staying out of range is a good strategy too. But, the grappler is prepared to cover long range in a short time sacrificing the back of the head and back. This is our advantage in my humble opinion. How we react then comes back to how we drill ourselves during our training.? Another thing I wanted to add after pondering this for a while. Say the grappler has you by the waist, and you have him in a sort of headlock. How hard would it be to just sit down and drive his head into the ground? Thoughts? Warmest regards, Tze Hou Tze Hou ni hao Personally, I would not let the opponent to "touch", let alone hold my waist. If I think he or she will be able to do that on me, I would prefer not to fight. Cheers.
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Post by konghan on Nov 12, 2004 9:47:48 GMT -5
Good day everybody. In my limited knowledge, I would apply these techniques if someone was charging for my legs. If there is ample time to react: Go into Sei Ping Ma, side facing grappler and hope that the timing of an uppercut meets his nose (If possible, I would aim for the eye with extended finger). That should be able to upset him enough. If that fails and contact is made, hopefully I can still connect a couple of swings into his left and right floating ribs and do some damage. Hopefully because of the low stance, I might be able to connect a kick into the groin. Go into semi forward stance and try to knee grappler. Failing that and when contact is made, put weight forward onto him and try to connect a kick into the knee or groin. If the grappler is closing in and there is little time to react: Step into the 7 or 5 o'clock and give the space to the grappler, some chin na techniques could then be applied from that scenario, grabbing the hair, pulling grappler into my right side with left palm into neck/ear/jaw, or, just random straight punching/uppercuts into side of face/head. Of course, these are hypothetical situations and under the assumption that the grappler does not anticipate the moves. The execution of these moves, again, depends on the level of training to react instinctively. As usual, there is no substitute for training. Warmest regards, Tze Hou Technically if we are fighting in a UFC type where rules of engagement is favourable to grapplers then to strikers because there are many parts of the body that have been ruled as foul. So basically a striker can only aim for legitimate spots which are always under cover because the grappler is most of the time cruanch down. Many agreed that grappers will expose their back area to execute the shoot technique, a strike to the back of the head or strike to the spinal column would be paralysing. ANother way is if the grapper does get in & have his arm around your waist, then do what Mike Tyson did bite the ear off, guage the eyes out of the eye socket. ;D Thats' why in a UFC type tournament of continous fighting, grapplers have the advanatge. All they have to do is get in once they get their striker opponent wrap up it is just a matter of time before the grappler will be able to executue a technique of submission. And since rules prohibit strikers to use "survival techniques" to get out of such situation, tye striker can only defend & struggle hopefully the time runs out or the grapper makes a mistake that would allowed the striker to escape the hold.
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Post by essence on Nov 12, 2004 10:38:11 GMT -5
Good day everybody.
Yes I think the rules need to be updated in order to make all kinds of martial arts competitive in this arena. The first time I watched a UFC fight, I was shocked to see a grappler win.
Regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 12, 2004 17:04:35 GMT -5
Good day everybody. Yes I think the rules need to be updated in order to make all kinds of martial arts competitive in this arena. The first time I watched a UFC fight, I was shocked to see a grappler win. Regards, Tze Hou Tze Hou ni hao In the competition, winning not always favour to the better person. But to those who understand the rules better. Cheers.
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Post by konghan on Nov 12, 2004 17:47:31 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao In the competition, winning not always favour to the better person. But to those who understand the rules better. Cheers. True, that is why grapplers are not worried in getting hit at the back of their head or body when they go for the shoot, becuase they know its foul al so time is on their side with 5 minutes to execute a technique. While the striker is trying to find a legitimate area to hit at the same time fending off the shoot with his legs apart & arms holding off the grappler. Instead of elbowing the back of the head or neck he is now wasting time struggling with the grapper because the rule dictates no hitting at the back of the head. That is why I believe that a 3 or 5 second rule should apply against grapplers, if not then have strikers wear elbow pads & allow them to use hit the opponent's back, since most of the time grapplers always expose their backs. One thing that my late sifu always told us was that never, never turn or expose your back to your attacker or opponent.
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Post by Seeker on Nov 12, 2004 18:46:17 GMT -5
I have been watching this thread with considerable interest, as this has been an area of great interest to me. I have done most of my training in Yip Man family Wing Chun, with additional training in Ling's FuZhou White Crane and some Shaolin Lohan. I have also put in about two years in Gracie style BJJ, in an effort to learn how they do things. I became interested in the topic because of the incredibly confident boasts i encountered when speaking to BJJ guys about their system. To listen to them, they are effectively unbeatable, except by another BJJ player! So, my interest picqued, I started in on BJJ training and found some interesting things. More on that later. In my opinion, the distinction must be made as to whether we are speaking of; 1) a striker fighting a grappler in a UFC-style event, or 2) a striker fighting a grappler in a real-life altercation.
In the case of 1), forget about it. The rules clearly favor the grappler. Gracie-style BJJ players are VERY good and pretty d**n fast with their take-downs. Since strikers cannot legally strike the back or top of their heads with the elbow, you should count on being taken down unless you are EXTREMELY fast and mobile. Contrary to popular misconception, these guys do not charge in like football players with their heads down. Their upper bodies maintain a reasonably upright posture - the result being the back of their heads are NOT an easy target, AND their eyes stay on you! If you have some grappling skills yourself, then it comes down to who's the better grappler. There is always the option, if one can successfuly avoid the take-down, that the BJJ player will eventually get tired and become slower, thereby opening himself up for a "legal" strike. For me, i don't particularly care because i have no interest in tournament fighting.
In the case of 2), there is a different story to be told. I know from experience that when a take-down is properly executed, the back of the head is rarely an easily accessable target. However, the TOP of the head is usually available, but only for an extremely short instant, because, as i've said, when done by a good player, they are very fast. So, the conclusion i have come to (as a Wing Chun/White Crane guy) is:
1) keep myself in stellar cardio-vascular shape, so that i can wear the opponent down until he is slow and makes a mistake; 2) if i do get into a take-down position, I IMMEDIATELY form a fok sao around the opponents neck with one arm, in order to reduce his capacity to evade, and to enhance the effect of my other elbow striking him in either a rising silat-style strike to the front or side of his head, or sinking/chopping strike to the top of his head. The key is of course, execution. One has very little time to do this. It is a rare blockhead who can take that kind of direct hit without at least flinching, which at least allows the striker to get another more damaging strike in, or squirm free from the take-down hold.
There are take-down evasion techniques such as the sprawl, which can be effective, but they violate one of my important Wing Chun principles of combining attack and defense in the same beat/technique.
So thats my humble take on how to fight a grappler.
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Post by Seeker on Nov 12, 2004 18:53:07 GMT -5
Note: for those who are unfamiliar with my terminology - a Wing Chun "Fok Sao" is basically the formation of a "crook" with the wrist area of the arm. It is widely used as a controlling hand, or a method of contact with the opponents arm, which affords the practioner a high-degree of contact with the opponent. In this case, the crook of the arm/wrist is around the opponents neck.
cheers
Chas
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 12, 2004 19:42:20 GMT -5
Seeker ni hao Apreciate very much your suggestion But I hope I''ll never have to use them. Cheers.
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Post by konghan on Nov 13, 2004 0:09:35 GMT -5
I have been watching this thread with considerable interest, as this has been an area of great interest to me. I have done most of my training in Yip Man family Wing Chun, with additional training in Ling's FuZhou White Crane and some Shaolin Lohan. I have also put in about two years in Gracie style BJJ, in an effort to learn how they do things. I became interested in the topic because of the incredibly confident boasts i encountered when speaking to BJJ guys about their system. To listen to them, they are effectively unbeatable, except by another BJJ player! So, my interest picqued, I started in on BJJ training and found some interesting things. More on that later. In my opinion, the distinction must be made as to whether we are speaking of; 1) a striker fighting a grappler in a UFC-style event, or 2) a striker fighting a grappler in a real-life altercation. In the case of 1), forget about it. The rules clearly favor the grappler. Gracie-style BJJ players are VERY good and pretty d**n fast with their take-downs. Since strikers cannot legally strike the back or top of their heads with the elbow, you should count on being taken down unless you are EXTREMELY fast and mobile. Contrary to popular misconception, these guys do not charge in like football players with their heads down. Their upper bodies maintain a reasonably upright posture - the result being the back of their heads are NOT an easy target, AND their eyes stay on you! If you have some grappling skills yourself, then it comes down to who's the better grappler. There is always the option, if one can successfuly avoid the take-down, that the BJJ player will eventually get tired and become slower, thereby opening himself up for a "legal" strike. For me, i don't particularly care because i have no interest in tournament fighting. In the case of 2), there is a different story to be told. I know from experience that when a take-down is properly executed, the back of the head is rarely an easily accessable target. However, the TOP of the head is usually available, but only for an extremely short instant, because, as i've said, when done by a good player, they are very fast. So, the conclusion i have come to (as a Wing Chun/White Crane guy) is: 1) keep myself in stellar cardio-vascular shape, so that i can wear the opponent down until he is slow and makes a mistake; 2) if i do get into a take-down position, I IMMEDIATELY form a fok sao around the opponents neck with one arm, in order to reduce his capacity to evade, and to enhance the effect of my other elbow striking him in either a rising silat-style strike to the front or side of his head, or sinking/chopping strike to the top of his head. The key is of course, execution. One has very little time to do this. It is a rare blockhead who can take that kind of direct hit without at least flinching, which at least allows the striker to get another more damaging strike in, or squirm free from the take-down hold. There are take-down evasion techniques such as the sprawl, which can be effective, but they violate one of my important Wing Chun principles of combining attack and defense in the same beat/technique. So thats my humble take on how to fight a grappler. Stamina & endurance is the key without it one will be a sitting duck. In UFC there are now many strikers who are more skill & have out fougth grappers even from bjj training stock. Strikers have learn to stay away from takedown & to counter with ACCURATE & DEADLY STRIKES that will stunt or hurt the grapper. Most of the time I notice is that, strikers punch are not powerful enough to drop a grappler, secondly there is the close ring that allows a grapper to push their way against their opponent, then there's the illigal strike to the back. Remember, the back of the neck is very soft & deadly spot break the back neck bone with a powerful quick chop & snap! it can kill. As I have said before, the UFC rules are more in fovour of grapplers, give them 5 seconds to execute a technique & we will see that they will loose on points.
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Post by pitbull on Nov 13, 2004 10:07:42 GMT -5
let us not forget that nck IS a grappling art hehehe stand up grappling that is :-) and a very good one at that...i just hope i can reach the maturity stage when i can unlock the deepest secret of nck...
well,about ground fighting,i beleive the chinese overlooked this part of fighting too much...maybe bec in a streetfight,going to the ground means doom...specially fighiting w more than 1 people...
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Post by pitbull on Nov 13, 2004 10:16:14 GMT -5
remember the sakuraba vs gracie fight hehehe
and the silva vs sakuraba fights hehehe
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 13, 2004 23:16:21 GMT -5
remember the sakuraba vs gracie fight hehehe and the silva vs sakuraba fights hehehe Pitbull ni hao Is that the spar among BJJ or BJJ with other style? Cheers.
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Post by pitbull on Nov 14, 2004 8:24:33 GMT -5
sakuraba(wrestler/grappler) silva(muay thai/and some bjj)
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Post by konghan on Nov 14, 2004 9:28:13 GMT -5
Another thing that I find disturbing in UFC type of tournament is that it encourages fighters or martial artist to be "killers, brutal & to show no mercy to their opponent".
And this is very evident with their continous pounding of a down opponent & if it isn't for the referee to step in to stop the fight somebody is really bound to get kill.
The moral code of martial virtue is lost & only one thing is important ultimate victory, life of their opponent is to be distroyed.
And it is this kind of public " entertainment" that is being seen by millions of people specially teenagers that encourages them to be brutal in the street.
I always teach my students that use necessary force " explosive" attacks to bring your attackers down as quickly as possible. But once your attacker is down or half unconcious is no longer a threat it is time to walk away & call ambulance or police to help your fallen attacker.
To finish off your fallen attacker is " MURDRER" it is no longer self defense, to accidentally kill your attacker becuase they fell down hitting their head on the pavement from your punch or kick is an act of self defense.
Sports organizers like UFC have a big moral responsibility to the viewing public that is why full contact UFC type of competitions are supposed or usually done underground away from public view.
Life is important & that is what this tournaments seem to be forgetting. And yet they are so bold to criticise other martial art tournaments for being too "civilised".
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 15, 2004 4:58:19 GMT -5
I always teach my students that use necessary force " explosive" attacks to bring your attackers down as quickly as possible. But once your attacker is down or half unconcious is no longer a threat it is time to walk away & call ambulance or police to help your fallen attacker. Konghan ni hao A very good example of Wu De. Good on you. Cheers.
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