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Post by Suhana LIM on Mar 15, 2005 4:41:32 GMT -5
Please excuse me for being so bold. Let me express my teacher's opinion for this matter: "It is better to have one or two very dedicated students than to have a kwoon of undedicated students. These students will inherit the legacy of the arts." That's his advice for me. Da jia ni men hao IMHO, I also prefer quality over quantity approach. Cheers.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 15, 2005 10:00:18 GMT -5
For what it is worth.
Consider that a street savvy grappler will not shoot low for the legs, even against another grappler in a grappling only competition. If he can he will enter high and tie up your arms and off balance you with lifting and tripping types of stuff then drop and take your legs. This if he gets it in will take away a lot of you Kung Fu hand techniques.
The reason for not shooting low especially from longer range in grappling play where strikes are not even allowed is because you are vulnerable to a guillotine choke when the opponent sprawls.
Do what you want. You guys know a lot more about Kung Fu then I do, but if an opponent would shoot low at me I would sprawl. Lay your weight on him and take your legs away from him. Once you stop the double leg takedown with the sprawl then use your strikes or what ever it is you like to do. For instance, you can try a knee to the head of the guy shooting in without sprawling but you may only have one chance to stop him. Your opponent should bring his forearms up in a guard position until his shoulder makes contact with you. Perhaps a devastating knock-out could be a little more difficult then one expects. The consequences of not stopping the double leg first can be pretty severe. Not good to be on your back when your opponent is on his feet with both of your ankles under his armpits.
In my humble uneducates opinion, the most effective martial art is the one that is practiced.
Have a good week.
PS: I think the picture of the Kung Fu counter against the shoot is a little bit unrealistic because it looks to me the amount of range given the defender is too great.
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PaulH
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by PaulH on Mar 15, 2005 15:03:05 GMT -5
I note that good grapplers feel like wet blanket wrapping around you or a strait jacket. A good way to deal with them is to get used to this energy first which is very WC like-minded. See what work best against this kind of stickiness and know your options. =)
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Post by nothingness on Mar 15, 2005 16:00:28 GMT -5
Dear CEB,
Thanks for your contributions.
However, as Konghan states in his signature, "every technique has a counter technique."
The efficiency of the movements depend on the savviness and the mastery of techniques of each fighter.
I am trained in a fist-based art and also in a grappling based art.
I often find any arguments that claim an absolute superiority of a certain style as silly. Every style has its strenghs and flaws; no perfection. Even within the style, each individual has a certain stength that can also be his/her weakness compared to the other individuals within his/her own style.
I really appreciate your effort to elaborate the details of the technique. Konghan is also a major contributor on the technic applications from the NCK camp.
I think we can all improve by learning from one another.
Thanks
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Post by nothingness on Mar 15, 2005 16:07:26 GMT -5
I note that good grapplers feel like wet blanket wrapping around you or a strait jacket. A good way to deal with them is to get used to this energy first which is very WC like-minded. See what work best against this kind of stickiness and know your options. =) It depends on your applications. If the purpose is purely self-defense, then it often comes down to each party's savviness to exploit the opponent's soft spots. Any tournament is still a game; anything with a rule is still a game. NCK practioners are also trained with joint locks, and throws. A very advanced NCKer is also savvy with ground fight. It is not ne-waza like technique, it is more of striking techniques in a ground-to-ground or ground-to-standing fight. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that ground boxing is also a Hokkian tradition.
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Post by konghan on Mar 16, 2005 13:11:26 GMT -5
Grappling seem to have become an instant hit thanks to UFC and other media outlet. But if we try to analys the background of grappling and stand up fighting we will discover that (IMHO) is that stand up fighing were design mainly against confronting battle group fighting situation, it is to "kill" or finish a fight or battle at the quickess and smartest way . While grappling was design mainly for restraining or attemp to capture somebody alive. Historically when we talk about grappling we will be directed to the early Mongolian, Greek, Persian and Roman wrestlers. And most of the wrestlers fight to entertain. They hardly use their grappling skill in the battlefield. While when we talk about strikers we will hear about, fighting monks, Japanese ninja, samurai warriors, Roman legioniares, Gladiators (who hardly use any grappling), Chinese warriors great heroes that become famous during the era of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. But because combat has change substancially, all martial combat have now become a, as Nothingness has pointed out "a game" a sport, with one purpose only and that is to entertaine. If we are to really award which is the best combat art then I would say it has to be a mix martial art that combine a bit of striking, a bit of grappling, a bit of joint locks and a bit of weapon training. Base on that category, I don't think grappling qualify to be the best. And I say this because, honestly, I am tired of people that think grappling is the answer to self defense.
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Post by meltdawn on Mar 16, 2005 18:18:29 GMT -5
this is a pretty neat discussion. right now i'm concentrating with my teacher and a classmate on the grappling and grapple counters in our style. but most of my opinion, i have to say comes from watching so many UFC fights and trying to figure out what i'd do! i did date a grappler for a while, so i got to apply it, but i was never sure if he went all the way (pun intended).
i think two useful techniques when a grappler comes in are kneeing if you are quick and, like konghan said, controlling the head. but my teacher just yells at me "get out of the d**n way!" the best is to sink and attack, dictate the direction and confuse his angle.
kicking when you get grappled is not a regular option. most grapples are fast and you will either loose your root and go down or maintain your root by keep your feet and legs strong. when standing, he will be happy for you to brace against him because then he can feel for your weak area, knock you down or try to get a better hold there.
elbows in grappling can be hard because most good grapplers don't just shoot in head first. they attack at angles too. if you're busy getting your hand up to lay an elbow down, you've just opened up your ribcage to a shoulder or an opening for a submission hold.
in my style, we learn to use our hands while we're developing our root, then we learn to use our feet in the same way. then my teacher comes along and puts a stick in our hands, and it's back to square one! but seriously, if a kung fu practitioner knows his art's strong points of leverage in the hands and feet, and can use both hands and feet, going to the ground should just be a test to prove the learned body mechanics. it's all about leverage and inside fighting.
also, it's like having three ranges of fighting turn into four, the fourth and most inside being your nose, armpits and groin!
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Post by meltdawn on Mar 16, 2005 18:19:44 GMT -5
my writing sometimes sounds like teaching, i hope none of you will take offence... i have far more to learn from you!!!
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Post by konghan on Mar 17, 2005 16:37:00 GMT -5
IMHO and humble one is this: A lot of UFC type grapplers have a mix skill of striking and grappling about 25% striking and 75% grappling. They use their striking mainly to force their opponent to open up or to set them up to be grapple and taken down. These kind of fighters you will have to be careful not to fall into their faint strikes. What is important is to have a powerful penetrating strikes it maybe a kick, a punch or an elbow. The first strike will determine your ability to stop the grappler. If your strikes are not powerful enough, the grappler will just bulldoz his way in and take away your space of retreat. If you strike is powerful enough, the grappler will be hurt or stun stopping him from following up his charge, thus allowing you to finish him off with well place strikes. Sinking down is a good counter technique but you must be able to follow that up with a strike or else you will be fighting his fight. Sinking without a follow up strike will allow the grapple to counter that becuase they are train to do just that. In ngo cho kun we have this fighting stance we call " si peng beh" or 45 degree horse stance. This stance is good against low attackers. Remember this one, a grappler is like a snake an anagonda (giant snake) they like to wrap up their opponent and choke or sgeeze them into submission. And just like snakes, to control them is to control their head. You would want to keep the grappler in front of you. Donot stand up straight, stay low, slowly move in take away his space and force him to shoot. If you need to strike first be nimble as a monkey, depending on his fighting posture if he is stoopping low as if ready to counter your strike with shoot. Use a diving punch and keep your arms always close to your body that way you will have enough time to counter his shoot. If he is standing upright as if inviting you to throw a roundhouse punch to his head then, instead of throwing a punch deliver a power semi or full round house kick targetting inside his thigh or knee area. If it is powerful enough his knee will buckle up if it is semi powerful it will cause some spraining. But, as I have been saying before the bottom line will be skill level that will determin who is the victor and the looser. This is my humble opinion.
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Post by mickeykh on Apr 9, 2005 21:37:07 GMT -5
All the above techniques in the above posts are very good.....
My 2cts worth of experience is that
1. when he shoot, I applied the Gulliotine & wait for his head to go in & then elbow his back or use the left palm on his back or grab his pants & flip him over...& then apply the mounting guard on him as a finish
2. if he dun or before he shoot...use the right palm ( the same techniques in the 2nd move in yikimuay) to grab his back neck from the inner bridge of his arm & , push him down ( the subducing tiger palm) then use right knee to stun him before using other finishing techniques. Only work in split seconds.....
But sometimes I couldn't do it & when tat all fails ,the best I could do is to stoop low & try the ground kicking or low sweeping ( ( as in Yikimauy , the one with the right inner sweep)... it all goes to practises.......I am not good in MMA but these guys can give me hella of a time.....
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