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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 17, 2005 0:01:57 GMT -5
Howdy folks, Here is another Crane's posture from Shi-To Ryu karate. Picture showing 2 karate players from Hong Kong back in the 80s.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 17, 2005 0:40:34 GMT -5
Hi, A very clear-cut "White Crane" posture. Name of this in White Crane and many other Southern CKF system is "Child Holding Plate". Commonly, just like in Karate, a finishing posture as seen in White Crane, Ngo Chor and even Tai Chor. I even got a Northen version of this technique that I'll post later.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 17, 2005 4:32:27 GMT -5
Oooookay folks, (heavy downpour outside) Found somewhat similar techniques that we have been talking so far. First from Liang's style Pak Kua. Notice how being a "internal" system, every technique ends with "fa jin" and sending opponent away. The first , the hand trapping, is added with a step-in and push. They call this "Fairlady Working the Shuttle"; just like Tai Chi's. The bottom pic is from White Crane - something that you Karate folks might find familiar.
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Post by Mercury on Feb 17, 2005 8:55:33 GMT -5
Eric raised a number of questions, the first being
Okinawan boxing was known as Tode (Chinese hand) prior to 1936. Sub divided into the regions where taught Naha-Te, Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te 1933 Chojun Miyagi officially named his teaching ‘Goju-Ryu’ with the Dai Nippon Butokukai, (All Japan Martial Arts Association). At first Karate was politically designated as sub division of Judo. Goju Ryu is therefore the oldest karate tradition recognised by the Dai Nippon Butokukai. Please note:- NOT the oldest Okinawan boxing tradition. 1936 Okinawan masters including Chojun Miyagi, Juhatsu Kiyoda, Choki Motobu, Chomo Hanashiro , Chotoku Kyan, and Chosin Chibana agreed to adopt Karate Do as the generic name of what was previously Tode (Chinese hand)) This was done to preserve the art that was now being practised by mainland Japanese that threatened to take political and developmental control of it. Anything having a Chinese influence would not have been tolerated by the Japanese, even being from Okinawa was itself seen as a lower social order. Prior to this Okinawan masters had often shared their knowledge and would send students to different teachers who learn their specialities. Following the boxer rebellion contact with the original Chinese masters who had taught Okinawans was lost, with many teachers being killed or fleeing to Taiwan. In the 1920s and 30’s there was a collected drive in Okinawa to protect the knowledge that was passing with the death of the old Masters who had studied in China. Many karate players therefore are still searching for their origins in the parent Chinese martial arts.
For myself I am very grateful to the 'elders' of this site who are sharing their insights and knowledge of Chinese arts with the Karate community
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 17, 2005 9:30:40 GMT -5
Just curious. Any anybody familiar with versions of Kururunfa that bends over when you turn and face the rear? We don't, we keep our back straight and squat similiar to a sankyo posture from Japanese Kendo. I think Shi To Ryu does the bend. If so how similiar is it to the top picture? I wish Alvelais Shihan was here. Maybe I will invite him. I hope that is alright with you guys.
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Post by Mercury on Feb 17, 2005 13:10:01 GMT -5
Eric posted previously
This posture is very similar to the opening move of the Goju form Saifa. The differences being the lower hand is held as a fist but with a pliable wrist. The elbow is used as a point method to break down or open the opponents guards and then strike backfist to the face. A back hand is also used with the fingers whipping and raking the eyes.
The upper hand is help open with palm facing the opponent. The stance is low horse stance/ square stance to reduce the target and draw the opponents technique down. The palm is used to slap/press the attacking limb or guard down. The palm can also be used at an early stage as a holding method from a distance.
The leading shin is used to strike against the opponents then the knee presses to against the opponents leg to control their lower body
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Post by Mercury on Feb 17, 2005 14:05:05 GMT -5
Eric wrote: The old Okinawan masters studied with Chinese masters and these became the core teachings. Over time methods and forms from other schools might be also be introduced. These were then often assimilated in to the teaching often by Okinawanising them. So many, although not all styles, are eclectic in nature. An example being the Chinese White Crane master Gogenki who was teaching the Okinawans. The methods were absorbed into various schools but often the forms were dropped. This was at a time when the Okinawan teachers were creating a structured syllabus to teach publicly and be acceptable in Japan, anything that looked too Chinese was often changed or dropped. Your questions and search for the truth are not unpleasant and neither ignorant. Just a landscaper??!! Hahaha - Someone who shapes the future by planting and nurturing in the present based on the knowledge of the past.
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Victor
New Member
Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
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Post by Victor on Feb 17, 2005 21:35:05 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
Boy I love the examples you've picked, showing the projection potential in those technique, as opposed to the locking or striking aspects.
It really demonstrates how just a different view can change the entire landscape.
One of my personal favorites is Chinto kata, in its many different flavors. Depending on how you percieve it you can find a great deal of the basic aikido curricula in it, a great deal of tai chi chaun (such as da lu), almost all of the little tjimande I was shown, strong links to baguazhang style technique, and of course the more percussive aspects which are most often seen in karate.
One thing I've experienced is how powerful our initial studies are in shaping what we see. I know it's often taken me decades before I was able to set those intital teachings aside to see a larger range of potential.
Great effort on your part, you're really making my mind work.
Thanks,
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Post by Kosokun on Feb 17, 2005 22:32:57 GMT -5
Just curious. Any anybody familiar with versions of Kururunfa that bends over when you turn and face the rear? Hi Ed! We do Kururunfa where you turn your back and bend over. The kata is basically the same as about any Goju version that I have seen, except that instead of squatting we don't squat. We bend at the waist. AFAIK the application for the movement is an over-the -shoulder throw, which is the same application that I've always seen shown by the various goju instructors that I've met. JKF Goju Kai, Jundokan and IOGKF turn around before the squat. Your group doesn't, Ed? At any rate, the top photo (labeled "6-5") could be a variation of an application for the movement, I suppose. It looks more like "Needle at Sea Bottom" from Yang TCC, to my eye, though. Anyway, this application would seem to not employ the turn. YMMV An animated gif of the Gojukai version of Kururunfa can be found here www.gojukai.nl/karate/en/kata_kururunfa.htmlI hope that was helpful to you all. Be careful what you wish for Ed! You never know if a possom may waddle by munching on fish tacos! Well, I hope it's ok with your friends that I tag along. Lurk mode on! Rob Alvelais
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 17, 2005 23:11:01 GMT -5
Hi Mercury,
Thanks for your nice words.
But really I am but a landscaper who happens to know a move or two in Kung Fu.
Some more naïve questions (I got many coming):-
• Do you know of any empty-hands Okinawan systems that are not Karate-ised? Many years ago I was reading a magazine from Japan and found an article about an old fighting system from Okinawa known as “Ku Su” or “ancient methods”. Based on my limited Japanese reading skills, I think the author was saying that he was one the very few left who can still do the “ancient methods”. Not garbed in gi or typical Okinawan training attire, he looked like he is doing something very kung fu-ish. Tiger/dragon claws and even some kind of snake techniques. The other intriguing thing is his “internal” training. I wish I still have that mag with me so that I could post it.
• Gokenki – spoke about this with Russ. My thing is still, who is Gokenki? Read somewhere that he was supposedly a student of GM Xia Zhong Xian. This is unverifiable which to me is really odd. Here we have a Chinese tea merchant, who if right, played a noteworthy role in the transmission of White Crane boxing skills to non-Chinese. I would have thought he should be at least be mentioned in the White Crane family history, if not general CKF archives of that time. The fact of the matter is we don’t know this Gokenki. If he was a student of GM Xia, that would make him a contemporary of the late Huang Xin Xian (my Whooping Crane elder) and my dad.
• Skills reputedly left by Gokenki – which is exactly what Sir? Nepai or Nipapo? If you are referring to Shi-to version then I’ll have to say not even an abridged version of Whooping Crane’s Nipapo. I’ve looked at the other Fuzhou Cranes forms hoping to find a clue of this kata’s origin. Not much success there. The other Nepai/Nipapo that Russ posted in his vault is either recent transplant or Karate ka obtaining from the Chinese in current times. Neiseihi or 24 is not a Whooping Crane form. The only 24 in White Crane is an old Fukien form which was later adapted into Fuzhou Ancestral Crane as “24 methods of Evasion”.
• With what I’ve read about Sanchin, it cannot be a Gokenki’s legacy. So who brought back Sanchin – Goju’s forefathers?
I must reiterate – I am not a Karate player and my only interest is CKF histories. Specifically, the role that White Crane played in the origination, development and evolution of the other martial arts.
Not forgetting that I am just a landscaper with one or 2 kung fu moves………<br> ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Mercury on Feb 18, 2005 8:05:28 GMT -5
Eric wrote
Last year I was shown a video of an Okinawan teacher who by the look on it was demonstrating a Monkey form. Can't remember who the teacher was or his school. I will try and do some digging.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 18, 2005 9:31:37 GMT -5
Hi Ed! We do Kururunfa where you turn your back and bend over. The kata is basically the same as about any Goju version that I have seen, except that instead of squatting we don't squat. We bend at the waist. AFAIK the application for the movement is an over-the -shoulder throw, which is the same application that I've always seen shown by the various goju instructors that I've met. JKF Goju Kai, Jundokan and IOGKF turn around before the squat. Your group doesn't, Ed? At any rate, the top photo (labeled "6-5") could be a variation of an application for the movement, I suppose. It looks more like "Needle at Sea Bottom" from Yang TCC, to my eye, though. Anyway, this application would seem to not employ the turn. YMMV An animated gif of the Gojukai version of Kururunfa can be found here www.gojukai.nl/karate/en/kata_kururunfa.htmlI hope that was helpful to you all. Be careful what you wish for Ed! You never know if a possom may waddle by munching on fish tacos! Well, I hope it's ok with your friends that I tag along. Lurk mode on! Rob Alvelais Thanks a lot Rob. We do turn toward the rear in the posture and in the application. Glad to have you here. I have lost track of the white possum. He is "old hands" but gets kind of grouchy and scarry sometimes. ;D Interesting thing about turns in some kata. There are some turns or lack of turns in forms that we do not do in application. Kururunfa is not one of these. But the last move series in Seipai is one. To do the last set like our application you would be facing the back of the room. An old Shobayashi Ryu teacher taught me an idea he calls the 'honto' kata. The idea is that repeated postures were added to the forms to balance them out but if you want to see something closer to how the posture changes should work you remove them from the form. When you do this to Seipai then you can do the moves like the application and finish the form facing the front. Suparunpei becomes very interesting with the repeated posture removed. I don't KNOW the actual truth behind this Honto kata idea but I think there might be something there. Thanks again for coming here. We could use a good Shi To Ryu man. One thing to know is that there is sort of potty mouth language filtering software running on the forum and if you type Shi To as one word it comes out in your message as Nutso.
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CEB
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Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 18, 2005 9:42:17 GMT -5
... • With what I’ve read about Sanchin, it cannot be a Gokenki’s legacy. So who brought back Sanchin – Goju’s forefathers? ... I have no idea. But if I had to make a guess I would have to say it came from a Chinese person or persons who settled in Kumemura villiage around 1828. Or at least someone who started to teach the indiginous population in 1828.
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Post by Gojumaster on Feb 18, 2005 9:57:48 GMT -5
Mercury, This is almost assuredly Matayoshi Shinpo Sensei, who's family system purportedly included Monkey, Drunken, Mantis, and Crane forms. Best Regards, Russ Eric wrote Last year I was shown a video of an Okinawan teacher who by the look on it was demonstrating a Monkey form. Can't remember who the teacher was or his school. I will try and do some digging.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 18, 2005 11:19:38 GMT -5
Hey folks, Thought I include a picture of 3 of my students here doing the finishing posture in my Ancestral Crane's San Chiem. These guys been training about 4 months with me here.
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