Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Feb 10, 2005 23:25:02 GMT -5
Eric,
There are even other levels.
How about creating any stance without moving?
This has several variations.
One of which are Okinawan kata kamae, what look like still life poses. But are actually movement in non-movement. Where you form the kamae as the attackers attack impales itself on the non-movement. You don't move into or away from them instead because of the timing involved they implode on your stillness.
Another answer is to create the effect of any stance without moving, depending on how effectively you use your knee release to settle, and the essence of the stance is formed as your response is created.
This is one of the faster answers, you just respond, they've moved into your range, and by such a shift you can strike into any angle of opportunity.
Sorry words don't do some of this justice.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 11, 2005 5:45:14 GMT -5
Hi Ed, I think this is the technique that I saw on the Discovery's program. This picture is from a Karate book in my collection. Mabuni kaiCho doing kata Seipai. I don't just collect CKF materials. Anything to do with fighting..........
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 11, 2005 20:08:30 GMT -5
Eric, There are even other levels. How about creating any stance without moving? This has several variations. One of which are Okinawan kata kamae, what look like still life poses. But are actually movement in non-movement. Where you form the kamae as the attackers attack impales itself on the non-movement. You don't move into or away from them instead because of the timing involved they implode on your stillness. Another answer is to create the effect of any stance without moving, depending on how effectively you use your knee release to settle, and the essence of the stance is formed as your response is created. This is one of the faster answers, you just respond, they've moved into your range, and by such a shift you can strike into any angle of opportunity. Sorry words don't do some of this justice. Hahahaha Victor, I hope you’re not talking about Keanu Reeves in the Matrix. Kind of cool though. To just stay rooted and bend the body in every direction….wait I think Michael Jackson did it in one of his MTVs. Same Sifu? What you are talking about is exactly what I hope to hear in the Wing Chun thread. I posted some pics of Wing Chun’s (Po Fa Lien) Chi Sao done in the seated position. The pictures show simple back and forth “Lop Sau”. I think that’s what they call it in Wing Chun. (hey what do I know right?). I do exactly the same thing in my Fuzhou Crane’s training. We do drills seated! And there’re many Southern Kung Fu that I know of that do this, either seated or down from a half-kneeling stance. In GM Chee’s 5 Ancestors Boxing, they do 2 men set in a deep squatting stance – sometimes called the “passing motion’ stance – hahahaha. Before the seated toilet bowls days, you squat to do your business. In the Wing Chun’s thread, Jim posted to say seating force you to “sink” – very true. You must now sink without the legs so you are sinking to the midsection of your body. Seated execution also compels you to “Fa jin” without the legs – so you learn to just use upper body focus. In Fuzhou Crane, we are seated just under an arm’s length away and do our drills. The concept is exactly like you described; How to change “stance” without moving. Just playing with centerline shifting, bobbing , weaving and leaning back etc etc…. Just like Keanu Reeves…pretty cool ya? Now all I need is “Rayban” shades………………..
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Feb 11, 2005 23:27:14 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
That photograph of Mabuni was from his 2nd book "Seipai No Kenkyu" originally published about 1934.
I had translated part of it from French for a friend, Joe Swift, years ago and Mario McKenna has done a translation from the original Japanese last year.
Mabuni, founder of nutso Ryu, which encompasses almost all of the Okinawan arts if only from the large number of kata they practice, was a junior contemporary of Funakoshi Ginchin. Funakoshi in the mid 20's wrote the first work on Karate, focusing on Itsou's karate. As Mabuni also taught the same source kata, he chose to focus on the Hiagonna traditions, also taught by his friend Miyagi (founder of Goju Ryu).
His first work a year earlier focused on Sanchin Kata and Seiunchin Kata and its applications. The 2nd work (with photographs) was dedicated to Seipai Kata, a form I consider very Chinese in its focus.
His works were among the earliest to show how kata technique could be applied.
Actually in the 1930's in Japan, there were any number of extremely interesting texts published on karate.
Even more intreaguing where Funakoshi published some of the Okinawan Bubishi text in his 1925 work (but didn't translate it from the Chinese), Mabuni in the same work on Seipai, published a great deal of the Okinawn Bubishi for the first time. Showing about 20 or so of the 48 technique's discussed in that work, and additional material.
If one is interested in the Bubishi, those drawings were more detailed and seem more relevant than any of the more modern publications, where all of them are current renderings of the original work(s?).
Of course as the work had to be hand transcribed, it's of course questionable whether even his drawings were originals. I've heard it that all the copies were hand made, often employing a more talented person to make the copies.
2nd issue -
Now as for the Matrix, I hadn't thought of that, but in part it is an appropriate analogy.
Interesting you bring up bobbing and weaving, in a sense the use of the knee release, how you drop your weight, are similar to bobbing and weaving.
Part of the no stance is faster response, your hands rise and your center drops to provide the appropriate ending.
And tying back to those original texts, 1/2 of Mutsu's very interesting text on Ryukyu Kempo (if my memory serves me right as I'm not looking it up at this moment) was dedicated to karate technique execution.
The first section involved bobbing and weaving, before getting into striking, parrying, kicking ,etc. Mutsu was Japanese, but after having a start with Funakoshi, left to train in Okinwawa with some friends, and in turn compiled one of the most complete karate texts ever written. A translation into English is underway by a friend, for eventual publication.
By way of comparison, the Seipai Applications offered by Mabuni were rather simplistic, more a very basic primer, where Mutsu's work published almost the same time, was incredibly detailed as to what karate might be used for.
Interesting memories,
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Feb 11, 2005 23:29:04 GMT -5
I must note I did not spell nutso ryu. The original was S*H*I*T*O* RYU, I suspect there is some sort of text editor in existence on this site.
Very interesting,
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 12, 2005 3:04:52 GMT -5
Hi Victor,
Got another book by Mabuni-Sensei.
But this time, you see his son.
Don't have this book here in Kuching.
I think almost all the Shi-to forms are in there except 108/and the Crane forms.
There's one form that I seldom hear about and that is "16".
Simple kata with a double tiger palm push kinda like the way they do it in Yong Chun White Crane's "Ba Fen".
Yes there is a text editor embedded in this forum softwares.
We are all nice civilised folks.
No rough languages allowed. ;D ;D ;D
Thank you Sir.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 12, 2005 4:11:08 GMT -5
Okay sorry to go off track again here. But heck, we are family so we bear with each other. I got some pictures here that might be of interest to all:- 1. A page out of Mabuni-KaiCho’s book. This, I believe, is taken from the “Bubishi” and here you see the exact same technique I posted in the Wing Chun thread. The technique there, however, is from Northern Grand Ancestor System. The technique on the right is called “Short fight, penetrating heart”. The left is called “Child Holding Lotus”. I have equivalent of this technique from many other CKF systems that I’ll post at a later time. 2. Cover of an old “Shaolin” book. Love this one, comes complete with poems, concepts and everything. I also included a page from this book – a monkey posture. They don’t make form like this anymore! 3. A Singapore’s publication featuring a Malaysian Sifu doing Northern Praying Mantis.
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
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Post by Victor on Feb 12, 2005 5:48:33 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
Yep, the first diagram is one of the Bubishi 48 self defese techniques from Mabuni's Seipai book.
On the quick it resembles a technique out of Uechi's Seisan kata.
If any one compares this against almost all of the more recent books (those in Japan as well as in English (McCarthy's and Alexander and Penland's versions) you'll see they don't have the same level of detail are are likely modern re-drawings.
In fact sometimes different renderings of the same Bubishi section show very different striking areas, making it difficult to accept any version as the 'right' one. But I'd like to think that Mabuni's were closer to the original.
If I knew how to add pictures I'd try and find another one from my files to show the difference.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 13, 2005 4:50:49 GMT -5
Hi Victor, Here is a Chinese version of the same (well almost) technique found in Seipai. This is taken from Northern Shaolin (Bak Siu Lam) and is called "Fishing moon from the bottom of Sea".
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Post by Nataraya on Feb 13, 2005 5:09:24 GMT -5
Very nice picture/ illustration of Trapping skills (Foon Sau) and/ or anti Kum La skill (anti Qinna).
I love the Cheng Wu (martial name) that comes along with it. The old language/ terms, that seems to be disappearing more and more. Sad.
Evert.
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Post by Mercury on Feb 13, 2005 7:02:09 GMT -5
Interesting sequence. For this type of trapping I use the term 'tying and sending'. Similar to the 20th illustration of the 48 applications in the Bubishi
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CEB
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Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 14, 2005 10:01:46 GMT -5
Hello Eric Yes we work that application out of a technique we call tora guchi or mawashi uke. Not a particular favorite application of mine but it does work. Some 2 man drills I have had people working pretty hard on lately with our basic uke techniques is the idea that the 'non blocking' or 'leading' hand does the 'block or deflection etc.... and the "blocking" hand is used to break the opponents center. The basic theme I guess is that the left hand guards against opponents right hand and the right hand guards against the opponents left hand but once the opponents incoming hand is moved past his centerline then you crash his center with your other hand. As always it all starts with the feet and often ends with traps once his hand breaks his centerline. I hope this makes sense. I am just an old Judo Player. Been working this with most of the basic uke techniques. I also like to make the distinction that the uke does not mean block but instead it means to recieve and that is what the techniques are design to do is to recieve forms of incoming force. Have a good week. Hi Ed, I think this is the technique that I saw on the Discovery's program. This picture is from a Karate book in my collection. Mabuni kaiCho doing kata Seipai. I don't just collect CKF materials. Anything to do with fighting..........
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 14, 2005 11:51:51 GMT -5
Hi Ed,
Thanks for the reply.
A simple counter technique;
Name of technique is "Wild Horse Ramming Stable".
When caught in a situation like this and as opponent is pulling you, ram your head into opponent chest area and then into his chin.
This is a technique taken from a Shaolin form.
Thought I share this.
Thanks.
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Post by olddragon on Feb 15, 2005 2:09:00 GMT -5
Eric:
some of the pictures are reminiscent of Isshin ryu Chinto. Interesting how when you break it down there can be many styles but similar techinques, of course the difference in styles is usually a different view and emphasis of the same technique.
Good to see you here Mr. Smith. Its been a while.
As to Similarities to Trapping hands or push hands, there are some exercises in Okinawa that resemble this. Very similar indeed but with more power focus rather than flow. Some do it more flowing some do it with focus or chinquichi (kime)
I've been gone a while, glad to be back.
Mike O'Leary
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 15, 2005 9:38:28 GMT -5
Thank you. I like that. My wife always says I am hard headed. I love the way the Chinese name their techniques. Thanks again. This is off topic but, where would a good place to go to read about the use of poem within the context of gungfu. My Wing Chun teachers never did this. Have a good week. Hi Ed, Thanks for the reply. A simple counter technique; Name of technique is "Wild Horse Ramming Stable". When caught in a situation like this and as opponent is pulling you, ram your head into opponent chest area and then into his chin. This is a technique taken from a Shaolin form. Thought I share this. Thanks.
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