CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 15, 2005 9:49:20 GMT -5
Eric: .... As to Similarities to Trapping hands or push hands, there are some exercises in Okinawa that resemble this. Very similar indeed but with more power focus rather than flow. Some do it more flowing some do it with focus or chinquichi (kime) ... FWIW our Goju here does both. We start off with a power focus then develop from there. We use three basic patterns of kakie both one and 2 hands. The 3rd pattern is a deflecting type pattern and is all about flow with little in the way of "power". I'm just an old Judo player but IMO the power focus helps develop the flow because if you work power against someone strong it teaches you that you can not be stiff and still move your training partner. You need your whole body especially your butt and legs to push. One of our students is a former bouncer he is 6 foot 6 and weighs 315 pounds. He is a treat to work with. Nice to hear from you Mike. Ed Boyd
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 15, 2005 10:45:44 GMT -5
Thank you. I like that. My wife always says I am hard headed. I love the way the Chinese name their techniques. Thanks again. This is off topic but, where would a good place to go to read about the use of poem within the context of gungfu. My Wing Chun teachers never did this. Have a good week. Hi Ed, So you’re a hard-headed old Judo player who is also a Goju and Wing Chun practitioner. Okay, it all makes perfect sense – no problem. I might be grossly wrong here; Wing Chun being the most “scientific” of all CKF has more or less does away with “flowery” names. Your straight vertical punch is simply “Character Sun Punch” – looks like Chinese sun character when looking at the fist held vertical. This technique, looking at it from the front also looks a little like someone holding a wine pitcher and thrusting it at you. So I do the same technique but it is known as “Warlord Offering Wine”. Or Carlsberg. ;D ;D ;D
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 15, 2005 11:43:45 GMT -5
Oh no I am not a Wing Chun player. I took lessons for about 2 years, 25 years ago before I got back into karate. I crossed hands a few times with a disciple of Leung Ting about 5 years ago. But I don't know anything of substance about Wing Chun except that I suck at Wing Chun.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 15, 2005 12:16:40 GMT -5
Speaking of Sun that reminds me of a story Chinen Sensei told us about why we close our kata with the hand movements we use. At the end of our forms we hold both hand open finger pointing upward fingers together right hand inside of left then we press the hands downward fingers pointing downward palms still face our bodies. I don’t know how to describe it I wish I knew where there was a picture of this.
Well Chinen Sensei told us this is derived from the hand sign of the Ming. Originally the right hand was a fist held sort of palm down in front of the chest and the left hand was open and covered front and top of the fist. The round fist represented the sun. the crescent shaped open left hand represented the moon. The Ming considered themselves enlightened and what lights the Earth? It is the sun and moon. Out of respect for Karate’s Chinese roots we close our forms with this movement.
I always enjoy a good dojo story as we try to catch our breath.
Something that this movements brings to my mind is in that the way I do it the location of the starting and finishing crossed hands are also about the same height as the position of the crossed wrist in opening of Siu Lum Dao. It is my understanding the position represents the borderline between upper middle and high gate and the lower and ground gate. I am not saying this the meaning to our Karate closing hands. I’m just saying it always just bring this thing to my warped little mind.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 15, 2005 12:45:32 GMT -5
Yes Ed,
The fist and palm is the “Ming” salute. I think we spoke about this in the “Southern Kung Fu” board somewhere.
In CKF, you will see various adaptations of this.
During the Ching Dynasty, boxers caught up in fighting the Manchurians were using this to id one another.
“To expel the Ching and revive the Ming” is how it was put.
The other explanation is; the 4 left fingers wrapping around the right fist is correspondent to the popular Chinese saying “Within the 5 lakes and 4 seas, all men are brothers”.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 15, 2005 12:53:43 GMT -5
Errrgh, all you Karate folks staying politically right?
Nobody want to claim to have the oldest system?
C'mon, talk a walk on the wild side.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 15, 2005 15:55:38 GMT -5
We (Goju people) have claimed to have the oldest Karate style with a name.
In terms of unbroken Okinawan lines. Lines going back to Sakugawa are pretty old. (Shorin Ryu systems via Matsumura ) I have read that the oldest known Okinawan kata is Sakugawa no Kun (staff form). I have been told by a Shorin Ryu teacher that the oldest kata I do is KoBo, This is another staff form that a Sensei told me was older than Sakugawa no Kun in that it is derived from a 16th century pole cleaver exercise. I do not know for sure what is really true. KoBo sure does resemble the cutting movements of a pole cleaver.
Miyagi Sensei said that all we know for sure is that we inherited a system of gung fu that came to Okinawa in 1828 that continued to be practiced and later became known as Goju Ryu. What kind of system this was I have know idea.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 15, 2005 22:12:00 GMT -5
Here's another presentation of the same "elbow" technique. Love the way the left palm is used to check opponent's right fist. I took this pic from Bob Orlando's website. Bob is the author of a few books talking about Indonesian Fighting Concepts. A long time student of Wiliem De Thouars, Uncle Bill, Bob is also a good personal friend. In fact when I was teaching in Denver, he used to drop in every now and then........
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 0:35:35 GMT -5
The Southern Mok Gar's version of this elbow. Done from the outside door and with an elbow break before the up elbow. Enjoy.
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Post by olddragon on Feb 16, 2005 1:53:11 GMT -5
Errrgh, all you Karate folks staying politically right? Nobody want to claim to have the oldest system? C'mon, talk a walk on the wild side. Eric: One of the problems with your question is that for so many years on Okinawa during the ocupation nothing was written down. Also you have to remember that it was only in this century that many of these styles became formalizedand taught openly. Prior to this century it was Ti or Te depending on your spelling. And to top it off there were two basic systems, Naha Ti and Shuri Ti, basicly North end of the island and south. CEB's comments about bo kata being oldest makes sense because the art of weaponry developed prior to the empty hand and in fact has a different lineage all together. With the lack of written history, the conflicting stories that were handed down by word of mouth I dont know of anyone who can in good concience state which of the modern styles are the oldest. Mike O'Leary
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Post by olddragon on Feb 16, 2005 1:55:07 GMT -5
Did this lady have short blonde hair and a French accent? Mike O'Leary Hi Ed, Your tribe? Talking about Goju? Saw a program very recently on Discovery Channel here in Kuching and they featured a Goju School in Okinawa. I think it was Sensei Iha (not sure with spelling) dojo. If I disregard the gi, I would have thought that I was watching a Kung Fu training in session. They were doing something that looks like "trapping hands". Have you seen this? The program is about this lady who travelled to Okinawa to learn some traditional Goju forms. There was also this Jean Frenette guy (not sure with spelling again)with her.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 10:10:19 GMT -5
Eric: One of the problems with your question is that for so many years on Okinawa during the ocupation nothing was written down. Also you have to remember that it was only in this century that many of these styles became formalizedand taught openly. Prior to this century it was Ti or Te depending on your spelling. And to top it off there were two basic systems, Naha Ti and Shuri Ti, basicly North end of the island and south. CEB's comments about bo kata being oldest makes sense because the art of weaponry developed prior to the empty hand and in fact has a different lineage all together. With the lack of written history, the conflicting stories that were handed down by word of mouth I dont know of anyone who can in good concience state which of the modern styles are the oldest. Mike O'Leary Okay Mike, So more or less, we are saying no one is certain which is the oldest Karate. So here is my question; Most Karate that I know has the same kata syllabus. Is this accidental or was there a transmission pattern? Were kata added individually or as a “package” is what puzzles me. So if nobody is sure which is the “oldest”, how are Karate researchers collating to Chinese arts. Which Ryu is use as the datum? Did different researcher base their research on different Karate ryu. If that is the case, maybe this whole history convolution is understandable. Yes?
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 10:14:26 GMT -5
Did this lady have short blonde hair and a French accent? Mike O'Leary Yes that's the one. In the show, she was learning "Seyunchin" in an Okinawan Dojo. There is a portion showing some kind of 2-men drills that really reminds me of typical Kung Fu training.
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Post by Mercury on Feb 16, 2005 17:58:37 GMT -5
I’m not sure it is possible to say which is the oldest karate style as pre war years was often just a given teachers art and generically referred to as Tode Chinese Hand. Higashionna’s (the teacher of Chojun Miyagi) first teacher was Aragaki Saisho who was reputed to be have been schooled in Shaolin Lohan. (Jap Rakanken)
Aragaki’s teacher was possibly Wai Shin Zan (Wai Xian Xian/Wan Shin Zan)) who taught at the Kojo family dojo in Fuzhou/Fujian/. The Kojo were a Chinese family who had family members in Okinawa.
Incidentally Uechi Kanbun was insulted at the Kojo school and left to find another teacher Zhou Zhi He (Tiger boxing?).
Higashioona studied at the Kojo dojo and it was during his time here that he may have met and studied with Xie Zhong Xiang. On his return to Okinawa Higashionna he taught what he termed ‘Shorei Ryu’ enlightened style (ie Arhat/Lohan boxing) and 5 forms Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru, Pechurin (supraenpei) and Neipai.
Xie Zhong Xiang went on to study with or all ready studied with white crane master Pan Yuba.
When the Okinwan masters gathered in 1936 they didn,t /would,’t reveal the origins of their arts. I think this may have been to hide the influence of the Kojo family on Okinawan arts given their Chinese lineage and the anti Chinese feeling of the mainlan Japanese at that time.
Miyagi and other Okinawan teachers studied crane with Gogengi who accompanied him on trips to China to extend his knowledge of chinese martial arts.
My teachers consider (via oral tradition) Aragaki’s karate was more natural and that Miyagi altered Higashioona’s methods. When talking about karate they refer to it as a martial art in its infancy of only 100 years old, so is changing and growing.
Trouble is majority of Okinawan martial history is oral tradition that gets lost, forgotten, embelished etc
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 22:47:25 GMT -5
I’m not sure it is possible to say which is the oldest karate style as pre war years was often just a given teachers art and generically referred to as Tode Chinese Hand. Higashionna’s (the teacher of Chojun Miyagi) first teacher was Aragaki Saisho who was reputed to be have been schooled in Shaolin Lohan. (Jap Rakanken) Aragaki’s teacher was possibly Wai Shin Zan (Wai Xian Xian/Wan Shin Zan)) who taught at the Kojo family dojo in Fuzhou/Fujian/. The Kojo were a Chinese family who had family members in Okinawa. Incidentally Uechi Kanbun was insulted at the Kojo school and left to find another teacher Zhou Zhi He (Tiger boxing?). Higashioona studied at the Kojo dojo and it was during his time here that he may have met and studied with Xie Zhong Xiang. On his return to Okinawa Higashionna he taught what he termed ‘Shorei Ryu’ enlightened style (ie Arhat/Lohan boxing) and 5 forms Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru, Pechurin (supraenpei) and Neipai. Xie Zhong Xiang went on to study with or all ready studied with white crane master Pan Yuba. When the Okinwan masters gathered in 1936 they didn,t /would,’t reveal the origins of their arts. I think this may have been to hide the influence of the Kojo family on Okinawan arts given their Chinese lineage and the anti Chinese feeling of the mainlan Japanese at that time. Miyagi and other Okinawan teachers studied crane with Gogengi who accompanied him on trips to China to extend his knowledge of chinese martial arts. My teachers consider (via oral tradition) Aragaki’s karate was more natural and that Miyagi altered Higashioona’s methods. When talking about karate they refer to it as a martial art in its infancy of only 100 years old, so is changing and growing. Trouble is majority of Okinawan martial history is oral tradition that gets lost, forgotten, embelished etc Hi Mercury, Thank you for that post. Pardon my naivety, but I got a few questions:- • The impression I am getting now is that Karate was only stylized into few systems recently? True? Then who initiated this? • So can I say that it is a mosaic formation with Katas taken from various places? Pardon me if I sound ignorant and unpleasant in any way – I am just a landscaper remember? • So if I were to ask you for underlying concepts/principles, you would give me answers based on the various katas. You would not give me“system” principles/concepts around which katas are created? Generally, outside of Ueichi and Ryuei, would I be very wrong to assume that most other (known ones) Karate are shades of a similar system? Here I am talking about permutations of katas. Since 4 katas are isolated as clearly transplanted from China, these are the 4 used by researchers in their quest for roots there? Sir, no hidden agenda but just curiosity. Believe it or not, I have never read any of the published work available talking about karate histories. My encounter is primarily through website browsing every now and then. However, most times I seem to get conflicting versions of who did what and when. White Crane is always popping up though. I got no problem with that. Even if we contained it to China, White Crane is taken to be one of the major systems that spawned many other Southern CKF. And to think that Okinawans/Japanese studying there brought home some White Crane,IMHO, is totally plausible. Question is how much?
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