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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 18, 2005 11:23:26 GMT -5
Mercury, This is almost assuredly Matayoshi Shinpo Sensei, who's family system purportedly included Monkey, Drunken, Mantis, and Crane forms. Best Regards, Russ Russ, is this the same guy in that "Fukien Shaolin" book we spoke about earlier ? If yes then it's not him. The guy in the mag, I remember, is a much younger guy with long hair and moustache. A big guy for a Japanese or Okinawan.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Feb 18, 2005 12:09:32 GMT -5
Stolsmark Sensei?
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Post by Gojumaster on Feb 18, 2005 12:32:17 GMT -5
Eric, Mercury was talking about a video...I have a video with Matayoshi Sensei performing these 4 forms (in an improvised fashion). I'm not sure what magazine you're referring to... The Fukien Shaolin book we were discussing was by Kinjo Akio, a student of Taiwan's "Golden Dragon", I think. Best Regards, Russ Russ, is this the same guy in that "Fukien Shaolin" book we spoke about earlier ? If yes then it's not him. The guy in the mag, I remember, is a much younger guy with long hair and moustache. A big guy for a Japanese or Okinawan.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 18, 2005 14:38:15 GMT -5
Hi folks, Some more idiotic question; see I told you I’ve got tons of them. Well, my late Sifu did say that I was the slowest in class so I am just staying true to myself….. • I have seen Whooping Crane’s Babulien (8 Linking/Consecutive Steps) and Nipapo (not the Shi-to kata but Whooping Crane’s) done by some karate players. My question is this; are they recently added into Karate or are there any ground to think that the transfer happened in the time window that we’ve been talking? • Any one of you Karate folks do any of these 2 katas? • Is the supposition that Karate is linked to Whooping Crane because of these 2 forms? • Are there anymore Whooping Crane’s forms found in Karate. More stupid questions to follow but first some Carlsberg…………..
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Post by Kosokun on Feb 18, 2005 15:04:38 GMT -5
• I have seen Whooping Crane’s Babulien (8 Linking/Consecutive Steps) and Nipapo (not the Shi-to kata but Whooping Crane’s) done by some karate players. My question is this; are they recently added into Karate or are there any ground to think that the transfer happened in the time window that we’ve been talking? • Any one of you Karate folks do any of these 2 katas? I do Nipaipo, naturally. :-) Kenzo Mabuni, son of the founder of Shi to ryu and head of one branch of the style, is adamant that Nipaipo is *not* Gokenki's kata. Rather, Nipaipo was authored by Kenwa Mabuni, based upon the teaching of Gokenki. John Sells, in his book, Unante, implies that GoKenki didn't teach his form (Nepai, I gather) the same way twice. No, I wouldn't think so, given that Nipaipo was created by Mabuni and therefore is a recent addition to Karate, shi to ryu in particular. Rob
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 19, 2005 0:20:14 GMT -5
Hi Rob,
And naturally I am not referring to your version of “Nipapo”.
I’ve seen this done by the Singapore Shi-to group and, quite frankly and friendly, very “mild” crane.
Need to apologize here but I see everything through my Whooping and Ancestral Crane lenses. And if you still find that comment distasteful, please remember that I am just a lowly landscaper in Sarawak.
The “Nipapo” I am talking about is very “Whooping Crane” in term of form. But the substance is, very obviously, something else altogether.
The same for the “Babulien” I have seen done by Karate folks.
Thank you Sir.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 19, 2005 3:53:15 GMT -5
Okay folks, Time to share some rare pics in my collection. The Late White Crane GM Wang Yi Ying in "Child Holding Plate" posture. Don't believe this is posted or published anywhere else. 2 other postures from this great White Crane GM's style done by his descendents. GM Wang was popularly known in SE Asia as a expert in "Min Zhong He". Sifu Leong, one of GM Wang most senior disciples, is one of my White Crane mentors here. When the new forum is ready, I will share more of this style crane with you folks. Should be of interest to anyone studying Fuzhou Cranes..............
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Post by Mercury on Feb 19, 2005 6:12:00 GMT -5
Eric was querying some of the background on Go Genki:
Wu Kiang, (aka Wu Hsien Kuei, Wu Xiangi, Wu Xian Gui, Wu Xian Hui. Woo Yin Gue,) 1886-1940.
1907 Uechi Kanbun opens a school the Pangainoon Kempo Sho in Nansei no Cho to the west of Fuchow . Nanching is the modern name for Nansei no Cho. Gogenki advises Uechi against opening a school in the area due to it reputation. Despite several challenges Uechi’s school prospered. It has been suggested that Gogenki studied with Uechi at the new school having previously practised Kingai.
1910 Go Genki Moves to Okinawan and worked as a tea merchant.
1912 Starts teaching White Crane (Yong Chun?) until hies death in 1940. Nicknamed Go Genki (Respected Master). 1915 Mijagi travels to Fuzhou, Fujian province search for his teachers roots with Wu Kiang acting as interpretor and again in 1936 to Shanghai
In 1918 the Ryukyu Tode Kenkyu-Kai (Okinawan Karate Research Club) was formed. Here okinawan teachers learnt from each other and studied Fukien 'White Crane Fist' from Go Genki. Some sources also state the Go Genki also taught Pangai Noon (hard and soft) forms which links back to Uechi Ryu.
Go Kenki is reputed to have taught forms including Paipuren, Nepai (Ershibada), Hakucho, Hakaku (Hakutsuru), Ryusan, also to have influenced the creation of Tensho (from Rokkisho – 6 wind hands?) and maybe Saifa.
Miyagi learnt a number and practised a number of forms from Go Genki including Neipai, but this was dropped from the structured ‘Goju Ryu’ Syllabus. Although some Goju teachers were still practising this up until 1940.
Another infuence on Miyagi was Tang Dai Ji (1887-1937) from Yaosha, Fujian lived in Okinawa in 1915 to 1930 to work with a cousin. He is thought to have taught a form of 5 ancestors or Tiger boxing.
The mystical forms Hakutsuru was one of those said to be taught by Go Genki. However in Matsumura Seito Shorin-ryu this is considered to be the highest and most secret kata dating back long before the arrival.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 19, 2005 7:23:39 GMT -5
Eric was querying some of the background on Go Genki: Wu Kiang, (aka Wu Hsien Kuei, Wu Xiangi, Wu Xian Gui, Wu Xian Hui. Woo Yin Gue,) 1886-1940. 1907 Uechi Kanbun opens a school the Pangainoon Kempo Sho in Nansei no Cho to the west of Fuchow . Nanching is the modern name for Nansei no Cho. Gogenki advises Uechi against opening a school in the area due to it reputation. Despite several challenges Uechi’s school prospered. It has been suggested that Gogenki studied with Uechi at the new school having previously practised Kingai. 1910 Go Genki Moves to Okinawan and worked as a tea merchant. 1912 Starts teaching White Crane (Yong Chun?) until hies death in 1940. Nicknamed Go Genki (Respected Master). 1915 Mijagi travels to Fuzhou, Fujian province search for his teachers roots with Wu Kiang acting as interpretor and again in 1936 to Shanghai In 1918 the Ryukyu Tode Kenkyu-Kai (Okinawan Karate Research Club) was formed. Here okinawan teachers learnt from each other and studied Fukien 'White Crane Fist' from Go Genki. Some sources also state the Go Genki also taught Pangai Noon (hard and soft) forms which links back to Uechi Ryu. Go Kenki is reputed to have taught forms including Paipuren, Nepai (Ershibada), Hakucho, Hakaku (Hakutsuru), Ryusan, also to have influenced the creation of Tensho (from Rokkisho – 6 wind hands?) and maybe Saifa. Miyagi learnt a number and practised a number of forms from Go Genki including Neipai, but this was dropped from the structured ‘Goju Ryu’ Syllabus. Although some Goju teachers were still practising this up until 1940. Another infuence on Miyagi was Tang Dai Ji (1887-1937) from Yaosha, Fujian lived in Okinawa in 1915 to 1930 to work with a cousin. He is thought to have taught a form of 5 ancestors or Tiger boxing. The mystical forms Hakutsuru was one of those said to be taught by Go Genki. However in Matsumura Seito Shorin-ryu this is considered to be the highest and most secret kata dating back long before the arrival. Hi Mercury, To begin, thank you very much for your replies. Thanks for the time and effort. Just wondering; where did you get all the info from? Are you quoting from some sources? Which ones? I will be away for a week or so; going to Kalimantan Indonesia. So if I don’t response, I am not ignoring you. Thank you very much Sir. Eric
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Post by Mercury on Feb 19, 2005 19:22:20 GMT -5
Eric, no single viable source I'm afraid. Instead books, articles, online and questions to my teachers which are mostly oral tradition. I tend to sift through things and look for agreements and contradictions. I am one of lifes believing skeptics, I am open minded but I always like to test my own beliefs and others. The wife hates it "why can't you just except something, you always have to pick it to bits".
I haven't answered your question ' was there a systamatic teaching in Karate from which the kata evoloved or did the teaching come from the kata'. Fantastic question, such clarity.
I spent tonight talking to two other teachers on this, over quite a few pints of Fosters. It was very lively and I am sure kept several other strangers in the bar amused over our discussions and antics.
A great Chicken and Egg question which I will post my reply when the beer and curry are no longer clouding my head.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Feb 19, 2005 23:33:33 GMT -5
Okay folks, Time to share some rare pics in my collection. The Late White Crane GM Wang Yi Ying in "Child Holding Plate" posture. Don't believe this is posted or published anywhere else. Eric ni hao Xie xie for the great pictures. The form by old master is exactly what we know as Pho Pay. The forms by the younger performers, similar like in our Sam Chien. Cheers.
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Post by Kosokun on Feb 20, 2005 18:45:08 GMT -5
• Is the supposition that Karate is linked to Whooping Crane because of these 2 forms? Maybe it's from this? In his book, The Bible of Karate: BubishiPatrick McCarthy writes on p. 159 about "Nepai Quan": -begin quote "A principal quan of Xie zongxiang's Minghe Quan Gojgfu, Neipai , in Chinese characters means "Twenty-Eight Strikes". It emphasizes grappling and the striking of anatomical vulnerable points. Nepai was first introduced to Okinawa by GoGenki when he taught it to Kyoda Juhatsu and Mabuni Kenwa. To-On-ryu was the only Okinawan style that preserved and passed on Nepai. Mabuni's version of Nepai, considerably different from the To-On-Ryu version, is called Nipaipo, and is practiced by some sects of Shi To -ryu. Nepai is still practiced several styles of Fujian White Crane gongfu. The explanation on this page represents the original Whooping Crane version as taught to me by the great-grandson of Ryuru Ko, Xie Wenliang." -end quote Evidently in To-on Ryu? Anyway, to quibble with Mr. McCarthy, the kanji for Nipaipo is "Two - eight- step" not " Twenty-eight". It could be that Mabuni's choice of kanji was "Ateji" or a "phonetic" rendering of "Nepai?" but the kanji aren't the same. Mabuni definitely used the kanji for "Two", "Eight" and "Step" ("Ho" in Japanese) So, a couple of questions to all of you Whooping Crane and To-on Ryu types. Do you have a Nepai in your syllabus? What does it look like? Can one view it on the web? Rob
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 24, 2005 4:39:00 GMT -5
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your reply.
My comments:-
You are right.
I find many inconsistencies in what is reported as Whooping Crane.
Firstly there is not such form as “Twenty-Eight Strikes” emphasizing grappling and the striking of anatomical vulnerable points in Whooping Crane or Minghe.
In Whooping Crane, we do something called “Nei Saik Paik Shou” or “28 Steps Resting (Crane)”. Please note that I spell every thing as pronounced in my Fuzhou dialect.
This is one of our intermediate forms that teaches the peculiar jin-play used in Whooping Crane. Besides the apparent whipping found throughout the form, the other aspect would be “Ren Dao, Shou Dao” or “Body and hand working in unison” when expressing jin.
This is more that standing still and expressing jin; it is really more about moving and expressing jin.
The first 2 forms in Whopping Crane, Sanjin and Paik Po Lian, introduce the concept of RELAXING and expressing jin but more from a particular spot. So everytime I come across Whooping Crane done in 'rigid" manner, I wonder..................
NSPS takes this further.
Some lines of Whooping Crane have dropped the “Resting” in the name. According to my late Sifu and other White Crane elders here, this is to avoid confusion with “Resting Crane” the other stream of Fuzhou Crane.
The “Resting” in this form refers more to “reverse breathing” used in certain techniques; so the “Resting” is more like “coming back” or “Swallowing” as in “Swallowing , spitting, sinking and floating”.
To answer your question;There is no White Crane form known as “Nepai” if by “Nepai” you mean “2 and 8”.
However, I would be posting a portion of Whooping Crane's "Nei Saik Paik Shou" soon.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 24, 2005 4:44:00 GMT -5
Eric, no single viable source I'm afraid. Instead books, articles, online and questions to my teachers which are mostly oral tradition. I tend to sift through things and look for agreements and contradictions. I am one of lifes believing skeptics, I am open minded but I always like to test my own beliefs and others. The wife hates it "why can't you just except something, you always have to pick it to bits". I haven't answered your question ' was there a systamatic teaching in Karate from which the kata evoloved or did the teaching come from the kata'. Fantastic question, such clarity. I spent tonight talking to two other teachers on this, over quite a few pints of Fosters. It was very lively and I am sure kept several other strangers in the bar amused over our discussions and antics. A great Chicken and Egg question which I will post my reply when the beer and curry are no longer clouding my head. Arrrh Mercury my good man, Maybe you want to think about changing beer when discussing. The "correct" beer makes all the difference.......hahahaha
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 24, 2005 4:49:26 GMT -5
Eric ni hao Xie xie for the great pictures. The form by old master is exactly what we know as Pho Pay. The forms by the younger performers, similar like in our Sam Chien. Cheers. Hahaha Suhana, Thought we are fighting and no longer talking to one another....hehehehe. Anyway just came back from SingKaWang, Kalimantan. Invited by a Chinese Association there to perform in their "Chap Go Mei" celebration and starting a Kung Fu school there. Strange place; a small town with over 1000 Chinese temples! When they parade their "deities", streets need to be closed and police were everywhere.....
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