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Post by Kosokun on Feb 24, 2005 10:36:58 GMT -5
Hi Eric, Thanks for your post. So, to your eye, NSPS does not resemble the Nipaipo that your Shi-to friends do? How does it match up to the other "Neipai" etc that you've seen from Okinawan systems ? Rob Hi Rob, Thanks for your reply. My comments:- You are right. I find many inconsistencies in what is reported as Whooping Crane. Firstly there is not such form as “Twenty-Eight Strikes” emphasizing grappling and the striking of anatomical vulnerable points in Whooping Crane or Minghe. In Whooping Crane, we do something called “Nei Saik Paik Shou” or “28 Steps Resting (Crane)”. Please note that I spell every thing as pronounced in my Fuzhou dialect. This is one of our intermediate forms that teaches the peculiar jin-play used in Whooping Crane. Besides the apparent whipping found throughout the form, the other aspect would be “Ren Dao, Shou Dao” or “Body and hand working in unison” when expressing jin. This is more that standing still and expressing jin; it is really more about moving and expressing jin. The first 2 forms in Whopping Crane, Sanjin and Paik Po Lian, introduce the concept of RELAXING and expressing jin but more from a particular spot. So everytime I come across Whooping Crane done in 'rigid" manner, I wonder.................. NSPS takes this further. Some lines of Whooping Crane have dropped the “Resting” in the name. According to my late Sifu and other White Crane elders here, this is to avoid confusion with “Resting Crane” the other stream of Fuzhou Crane. The “Resting” in this form refers more to “reverse breathing” used in certain techniques; so the “Resting” is more like “coming back” or “Swallowing” as in “Swallowing , spitting, sinking and floating”. To answer your question;There is no White Crane form known as “Nepai” if by “Nepai” you mean “2 and 8”. However, I would be posting a portion of Whooping Crane's "Nei Saik Paik Shou" soon.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 24, 2005 20:30:50 GMT -5
Hi Rob, Thank you. I did record some of my comments pertaining to karate-kas performing “White Crane” somewhere in this forum – hidden in some threads, can’t remember which one. Was lucky to be given some clips to view and I believe some of these are considered “rare”. The forms I saw:- 1. Shi-To’s “Nipapo”. 2. 3 other different versions of “Nipapo” by different streams. 3. Happoren or “Babulien”. 4. 2 crane katas from Ryuei –Ryu I think. • My broad feeling is that all these are done too “hard” at least for “Whooping Crane”. Humbly, of all of the Fuzhou Cranes, I see Whooping and Shaking Cranes as having the most obvious whipping-like energies display – the kind that start from the legs and throwing out with the hands regardless of a fist, crane heads or palms. You just cannot miss this when you watch any forms from these 2 cranes. The body is usually kept in a relaxed, springy manner with as little tightening as possible. I’ve got 2 forms stored in www.goju-ryu.info if you are interested. Putting up more soon. I also got a couple of Shaking Cranes’ that came from Evert (Nataraya in forum). I’ll ask him about sharing these. • If I must collate Karate to White Crane, I’ll put money on Fujian BaiHe (Martin Watts’ http://www.fujianbaihe.com) and Taiwan’s Feeding Crane. View these 2’s Sanchin, you just cannot miss the uncanny resemblances. The muscular focus, breathing pattern and even to a big extend, the footwork. Shaking Crane’s Sanchin can be seen at www.zonghe.com.tw - a much softer rendition. I have seen this done many times by one of my White Crane teachers in Singapore. And when he “Fa jin” or “explode energy” you could literally see his whole body vibrates. On one occasion, he was asked to perform this on wooden decking and throughout the entire form, he was bouncing so hard that you could feel the whole deck shakes. And this is exactly how they engage you; make contact and they bounce you away using different techniques. This would be a “friendly” encounter. A less friendly would be hitting you and then bouncing you away. They “open” you out first and hit you is how my teacher put it. Whooping Crane’s Sanchin is another ball game altogether. I have never seen Whooping Crane’s Sanchin done anywhere else! (This is one of the forms I got in http://www.goju-ryu.info) • Generally if you look at the various Sanchins (White Crane and the various other Fukien Styles), most would be done with back straight. The “swallowing” is done with most just straight-down collapsing. Martin did a great job in explaining this in one of his discussions with Evert and me. The backbone is the main “power focus” and the rest of the body is more output devices so to speak. So the back is keep “straight and focus” to discharge energies. The breathing in and out is the “triggers”. If I am not mistaken, most Sanchin (Chinese and non-Chinese) are transmitted in this manner. Whooping Crane’s Sanchin (unfamiliar to many apparently) is done with a little turtle back. A little like Tai chi’s “sunken chest and protruding back” concept. This turtle back is the 2nd reservoir of energy. • Shi-To Nipapo is nothing like Whooping Crane’s NSPS in either substance or form. So whatever Gokenki passed on, it is unlikely to be Whooping Crane’s NSPS. The other renditions of this form are too “Chinese” to be a classical import into Karate. Most of the form is “Chinese” except again for the substance. I see hard hand and footwork that is nothing like how NSPS is taught in Whooping Crane. Humbly, I think they are Karate-ised Whooping Crane – nothing more. Of course by doing this, you miss the point altogether. Oftentimes, I read that this is how Jap/Oki works. They take something from the Chinese and “modify” them to suit their identities, environments etc etc…<br> My question is then this; why only Kung Fu or in particular Whooping Crane if indeed this was the style that they were schooled in? Any other aspects of Jap/Oki cultures, you see much “Chineseness” retained. I was in Japan a few times and I could find my way around – no problem. The amount of Kanji used there is enough for me to move around. I was even quite surprised to find out that the way they worship their deities is so similar to the Chinese. I could go on and on. The other explanation is of course that the Jap wanted to remove all Chinese aspects of their fighting arts. So why keep the so-Chinese names of their katas? IMHO, some of the Katas’ name makes no sense if you do not tie it to the Chinese and their culture. Honestly, I think the truth lies elsewhere. I also read that most Karate researchers basically spent time in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan in their quests. This to me is odd. The biggest Fuzhou community outside China is Sibu Sarawak. You will find large Hakka communities in Sabah/Sarawak and Kalimantan. In fact in Sibu you must learn to speak Fuzhou if you want to fit in. Mandarin doesn’t get you anywhere in Sibu. I just came back from Singkawang, Kalimantan and the official languages there are Bahasa Indonesia and Hakka. I don't speak either so I was having big issues communicating with my fellow Chinese countrymen!!! Getting by with the little Bahasa Malaysia that I do know hahahaha what a strange scenario? ? Singapore and Malaysia witnessed huge influx of immigrant Chinese in the last 200 years. Many were CKF Masters who are lineage holders of their styles who fled the “cultural revolution” in mainland. I would even go as far as saying that Singapore/Malaysia/Philippines and Indonesia saw the largest number of White Crane and other Fukien styles arrival besides Taiwan. Let also not forget that many of Taiwan Cranes were “Made in Taiwan”. Hong Kong is more famed for Canton/Fatsan and Hakka styles. But lately, being personally stationed in Sarawak and moving around in the region, I am discovering the enormous Hakka communities and the CKF they brought with them from mainland. As a parting shot, Martin Watts the English guy who is now lazing on an off-shore Spanish island somewhere, started his Fujian Baihe journey in downtown Singapore. In a place called “Yong Chun Hui Kwan”, a clan association built by Fukinese immigrants. And this is also the place that I saw Wing Chun many years ago. A very “Fukien” flavored Wing Chun. Never seen it done again anywhere . The Sifu who did this taught only very few students and these folks are not teaching. I have tried, in vain, to locate them. IMHHHO, I think they could be the "missing" link between White Crane and Wing Chun. Back to my Carlsberg......... Thank you Sir.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 25, 2005 0:26:25 GMT -5
A posture taken from Shaking Crane's Sanchin. Like I mentioned earlier this style's SanChin is done with much whipping out - much like how a real whip would behaves. To view entire form go to www.zonghe.com.twThanks.
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Post by olddragon on Feb 26, 2005 12:43:13 GMT -5
Hi Rob, • Generally if you look at the various Sanchins (White Crane and the various other Fukien Styles), most would be done with back straight. The “swallowing” is done with most just straight-down collapsing. Martin did a great job in explaining this in one of his discussions with Evert and me. The backbone is the main “power focus” and the rest of the body is more output devices so to speak. So the back is keep “straight and focus” to discharge energies. The breathing in and out is the “triggers”. If I am not mistaken, most Sanchin (Chinese and non-Chinese) are transmitted in this manner. Whooping Crane’s Sanchin (unfamiliar to many apparently) is done with a little turtle back. A little like Tai chi’s “sunken chest and protruding back” concept. This turtle back is the 2nd reservoir of energy. • Oftentimes, I read that this is how Jap/Oki works. They take something from the Chinese and “modify” them to suit their identities, environments etc etc…<br> My question is then this; why only Kung Fu or in particular Whooping Crane if indeed this was the style that they were schooled in? Any other aspects of Jap/Oki cultures, you see much “Chineseness” retained. I was in Japan a few times and I could find my way around – no problem. The amount of Kanji used there is enough for me to move around. I was even quite surprised to find out that the way they worship their deities is so similar to the Chinese. Eric: You have done alot of research and I commend you on that. If I may be so bold as to slide from your path a moment. Many people I have talked to always refer to the forms or kata they are trying to compare as weather they "look" similar. Let me suggest another comparison criteria. What was the lesson of the kata? Sanchin for example is reported to be about learning to use energy. No matter how you describe it all of the Okinawan versions involve this. I read the link on the goju site you quoted and it has an exert from Mr. McArthys writings which I agree with. The basic premis of sanchin is the cultivation of explosive energy or to develop what many call Ki or Chi or Chinquichi. You talked earlier about the comparison of the Straigh back in Japanese and Okinawan sanchin as compared to the "turtle neck" posture of the Chinese. If we compare the passing of information to the childs game of passing the message in a circle of people, whispering in each others ear, the message sometimes comes out very different at the end of the circle. If as you said the Okinawans often adapted what they learned to their own purposes it would make sense that the forms would change over the years. What I tend to look for in making these comparisons is less in what they look like but a common thread in what they are meant to teach. From what I can gather from what you have said, Sanchin in both cultures has the root of 3 in the name alone, it also has the common purpose of teaching the use of the body and how to develop power. They both involve what I refer to as rise and fall, (you refered to a bouncing action) and even though one may use the motion differently it is still, in my eyes, part of the lesson. We must remember that even 50 years ago the Okinawans did not practice as we do today, nor were the individual styles what they are today. Classes were not formalized, styles were not formalized and it was not uncommon for students to spend years working one kata, Sanchin and Nihanchi being two of the most common. I was curious how the chinese studied 50 to 100 years ago. Were all of the present forms in place? Did a teacher hold a formal class or did they do as the Okinawans did and teach students one at a time? Another fact that comes into this is that a student may learn a kata and then be left untutored in it for a long time before the next lesson, did this also happen in China? I have seen Several versions of seisan and visually they may appear similar, the bunkai or translation of them can often be very different. In this case I have to admit a connection because visually there is obviously a link, when you study the kata a bit I have also found that even though the technique translation may be different the lessons of balance, movement, and posture are similar. Interestingly enough I spent a few days with Mr. McArthy a few years ago studying Aragaki Seisan, when he started this kata with the group he came over to me and said "you will like this!" and told the group to ignore their long low front stances and to bring the feet closer together and stand "up". (This is the basic Isshin ryu stance we call seisan" most other japanese styles use a longer front stance") The coreography of this kata was almost identicle to ours and the lessons of fighting straight on were similar, but the technique or bunkai application were very different. I can trace a connection a few generations back where Shimabuku Sensei (founder of Isshin Ryu) and Aragaki sensei paths of learning has connected. Many say that the connection is so small that it means nothing, but I still maintain that the lessons taught are the same, combine that with the visual and for me this is definatly a link. Sanchin is the same. Visually there are similarities, as to the lesson this to me is the clincher, we are all talking about the cultivation of energy. Mike O'leary
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Post by Kosokun on Feb 26, 2005 18:35:12 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
Thank you for your reply.
As long as I can remember, I've always heard that the karate kata come from Chinese precursors. That is, that there should be extant styles of CKF that have forms that bear strong resemblance to the karate forms. I've seen a lot of Kung fu in my day, living in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I've never seen a Chinese system whose forms are reminiscant of karate forms. I just chalked it up to not seeing all the Chinese systems that are extant.
I don't share Mr. O'leary's viewpoint (if I understand him correctly) that the concept is what's important vs. the outward morphology/choreography of the kata. While on one level, the concept/principle of the kata is indeed important, but from an "anthropological" standpoint, the outward form is important to see how a kata derived from older precursors. With regard to karate, the forms really haven't changed much in the last half century. I've got pictures of Kenwa Mabuni doing kata in the 20's and 30's and they're very similar to the way in which I was taught the kata more than 50 years later. One can look at Shotkan and Shi To Ryu kata and see how the shotokan kata were derived from Shi To Ryu kata. One can look at the Shi To Ryu and Kobayashi Shorin Ryu kata and see how these kata had similar roots. We can look at the Higaonna kata of Shi To Ryu and look at the Goju kata and see how these kata also had similar roots. It would seem reasonable that one should be able to look at the Shi To/Shorin /.goju kata and the forms of some Chinese systems and see a common root. Looking at the concept or principle of the form isn't helpful in this regard, as darn near every form extant has similar principles. Rather, looking at the outward shape of the kata would be helpful here.
Given that, it appears that Nipaipo/Neipai and the other shorin/naha forms don't seem to come from Whooping Crane.
An aside,
When I was a youngster, learning karate, there was a White Crane group in the area. I was but a child, so I don't remember which type of crane they were, perhaps Tibetan? I can't say. I do remember them walking about in a nice deep horse stance, with their arms moving in a windmill-like fashion. Does that ring bells with anyone?
Rob
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Post by Suhana LIM on Feb 26, 2005 23:03:51 GMT -5
Hahaha Suhana, Thought we are fighting and no longer talking to one another....hehehehe. Anyway just came back from SingKaWang, Kalimantan. Invited by a Chinese Association there to perform in their "Chap Go Mei" celebration and starting a Kung Fu school there. Strange place; a small town with over 1000 Chinese temples! When they parade their "deities", streets need to be closed and police were everywhere..... Eric ni hao Ha..ha..ha...What did you have in mind, why we don't have to cut off the communication just because we have different view? I'm sure you met plenty of interesting xiao jie. Fyi, Singkawang is the main destination for Taiwanese to look for partners. It is indeed a small place, but the majority of its people are Khek, and Tio Ciu. 1000 temples, deities paraded circling the town to give their blessings, ah I missed that scenes Btw, what sort of CMA school are you planning to form? Cheers.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Feb 26, 2005 23:53:53 GMT -5
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Post by olddragon on Feb 27, 2005 3:55:53 GMT -5
Hi Eric, Thank you for your reply. As long as I can remember, I've always heard that the karate kata come from Chinese precursors. That is, that there should be extant styles of CKF that have forms that bear strong resemblance to the karate forms. I've seen a lot of Kung fu in my day, living in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I've never seen a Chinese system whose forms are reminiscant of karate forms. I just chalked it up to not seeing all the Chinese systems that are extant. I don't share Mr. O'leary's viewpoint (if I understand him correctly) that the concept is what's important vs. the outward morphology/choreography of the kata. While on one level, the concept/principle of the kata is indeed important, but from an "anthropological" standpoint, the outward form is important to see how a kata derived from older precursors. With regard to karate, the forms really haven't changed much in the last half century. Rob Rob: I didnt say the appearance wasnt important, I suggested that in trying to research in may come in to play what the lesson was. As to kata looking different, compare Kankudai, Kusanku, they are of the same root and are supposed to be the same kata. The now look very different but the lessons are similar. Look at the Various versions of Chinto, Seisan, and Nihanchi, there are resemblances but there are also differences. If one were to compare only the appearance we could say that they were not related but history tells us different. Mike
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Post by Kosokun on Feb 27, 2005 9:40:59 GMT -5
Rob: I didnt say the appearance wasnt important, I suggested that in trying to research in may come in to play what the lesson was. ok, that clears that up. thanks. Oh, I don't agree at all here. Kosokun Dai/ Kushanku Dai and Kanku Dai are all quite, quite similar. Now, Kosokun Dai/Kushanku Dai/Kanku Dai and Chatan Yara Kushanku (the kushanku that is done in the Kyan lineages i.e., Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu and Isshin Ryu) is indeed a different kata from a different lineage. The Kosokun Dai/Kushanku Dai/Kanku Dai all have a similar lineage, so their morphology is also similar. Looking at Chinto, you see the same thing. The Chinto of Kyan (also the one done in Isshin Ryu and Matsubayashi shorin ryu) is different from the Chinto of the Itosu lineages. There, the Chinto of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu, Shi To Ryu, Gankaku of Shotokan are all very, very similar. So, by the similar morphology of the kata within the lineage, one can ostensibly trace back the kata from contemporary karate, to karate/Tode and one would think, to Chinese Martial Arts. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, I've not seen the forms in CMA that look like they could be progenitors of the karate forms. I chalk that up to my lack of exposure. Mr. McCarthy, in his book "The Bubishi" indicates that karate descended from Whooping Crane, but it would appear from Eric's posts that isn't the case. So, the search continues. Rob
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Post by olddragon on Feb 27, 2005 12:55:28 GMT -5
ok, that clears that up. thanks. Oh, I don't agree at all here. Kosokun Dai/ Kushanku Dai and Kanku Dai are all quite, quite similar. Now, Kosokun Dai/Kushanku Dai/Kanku Dai and Chatan Yara Kushanku (the kushanku that is done in the Kyan lineages i.e., Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu and Isshin Ryu) is indeed a different kata from a different lineage. The Kosokun Dai/Kushanku Dai/Kanku Dai all have a similar lineage, so their morphology is also similar. Looking at Chinto, you see the same thing. The Chinto of Kyan (also the one done in Isshin Ryu and Matsubayashi shorin ryu) is different from the Chinto of the Itosu lineages. There, the Chinto of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu, Shi To Ryu, Gankaku of Shotokan are all very, very similar. So, by the similar morphology of the kata within the lineage, one can ostensibly trace back the kata from contemporary karate, to karate/Tode and one would think, to Chinese Martial Arts. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, I've not seen the forms in CMA that look like they could be progenitors of the karate forms. I chalk that up to my lack of exposure. Mr. McCarthy, in his book "The Bubishi" indicates that karate descended from Whooping Crane, but it would appear from Eric's posts that isn't the case. So, the search continues. Rob Sanchin is reported to have been changed by Miyagi so that his version only has one direction, but it is definatly a change by him for a specific reason, because for testing he wanted you facing the instructor. Note this Sanchin is similar yet different from the original but they teach the same lesson. In 50 years without all the availability of technology and recording of history we would have all argued that they were not related if we follow your train of thought. As I have stated in past posts, people like Miyagi, Demura, Shimabuku, and others in Okinawa changed the kata to suit their own purposes. These changes are recorded fact. Nihanchi for example, some styles start moving to the left, some to the right, as just a small example. If I understand you correctly, and I may be missing a point here, are you assuming that all forms would have been preserved intact exactly as they were taught 100 years ago? Mike O'Leary Mike O'Leary
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
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Post by CEB on Feb 28, 2005 9:54:49 GMT -5
Sanchin is reported to have been changed by Miyagi so that his version only has one direction, but it is definatly a change by him for a specific reason, because for testing he wanted you facing the instructor. .... I have heard that before. I wonder what the source for that idea is. Anyone know? Several people have told me this. (None were Goju people but they are generally serious karate folks) FWIW. Chinen Sensei has said in the past that the Sanchin Dai Ichi and Sanchin Dai Ni in Jundokan is sort of a misnomer. They are not really seperate kata just sometimes they would do it with turns and sometimes without turns. Stepping backwards is good practice also. Kimo Sensei has told us that Sanchin without the turns is for elder practitioners who are too old and stiff to do the turns correctly. Sanchin is the hardest kata for me to remember the formal pattern on because Yamakura Sensei has us do the kata and we do not turn until he says mawatte. The number of steps depend on the size of the workout room. My old dojo was a basketball gym
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Post by olddragon on Feb 28, 2005 19:41:24 GMT -5
I have heard that before. I wonder what the source for that idea is. Anyone know? Several people have told me this. (None were Goju people but they are generally serious karate folks) Mike's response: I have been told this by goju people, and by first generation students of Shimabuku, that he relayed this story, I have also read it somewhere but for the moment "where" eludes me. FWIW. Chinen Sensei has said in the past that the Sanchin Dai Ichi and Sanchin Dai Ni in Jundokan is sort of a misnomer. They are not really seperate kata just sometimes they would do it with turns and sometimes without turns. Stepping backwards is good practice also. Kimo Sensei has told us that Sanchin without the turns is for elder practitioners who are too old and stiff to do the turns correctly. Sanchin is the hardest kata for me to remember the formal pattern on because Yamakura Sensei has us do the kata and we do not turn until he says mawatte. The number of steps depend on the size of the workout room. My old dojo was a basketball gym : Mike's response" Yamakura Sensei is using this as a conditioning exercise I would assume. I would think that the variations you have also cited would back up my point. Just for the record. Demura changing his stuff: He told me that himself about 5 years ago during a dicussion of common roots. I asked him about his kata vs a kata that I did that had some stance differences. Both of us had learned the kata through Taira Shinken lineage, him from Taira Shinken myself from a second generation student. I asked why he thought there were differences and he matter of factly admitted that the stance change was his and told me the reasons why he changed it. Shimabuku making changes: AJ Advincula, first generation student of Shimabuku was in Okinawa when some of the changes happened. Some of them had combat related reasons, some of them were because he was getting older and balance was more important to him at the time than speed and power. He encouraged his students to look at the move from both sides. Mike O'Leary
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 1, 2005 6:09:59 GMT -5
Hi Everybody, Apologies for not writing the last couple of days; had some problems with my PC here. And with business commitments and my coaching position with the Chinese Martial Arts Association here, just couldn’t find the time to go look for internet connection. Okay, read through all your posts briefly and my cursory response:- • Never dispute that Karate and Kung Fu are linked. Read all my posts and this position is clearly marked. • Never dispute also that Karate and Southern Fukien White Crane have intimate relations. Much of what I have seen in Karate points to White Crane and Shaolin. • My problem is when folks affirm pointedly that Karate (certain styles) are a direct byproduct of Whooping Crane. I will post more on this later. In the meantime, I am including a picture of myself doing a move from Whooping Crane’s San Jin. This picture was taken recently at a Dinner performance here in Kuching. I am the Chinese with the goatee. Thank you.
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 1, 2005 8:11:02 GMT -5
Hi folks, Posting another Whooping Crane pic from my archive. This is almost "signature" Whooping Crane posture found throughout the style. Thanks.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 1, 2005 9:25:16 GMT -5
What is the supposed Whooping Crane connection?
Is it that Xie Zhong Xian was a Whooping Crane teacher and he was supposedly Ryu Ryu Ko?
Goju dojo stories have Ryu Ryu Ko being an old man. What I got off the internet is that Xie Zhong Xian was born in 1852. Higaoshionna was born in 1853. He would have been very young. Only one year older than Higaoshionna. Just curious.
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