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Post by nothingness on Sept 23, 2004 12:19:55 GMT -5
I can't help it but to ponder in the past couple days.
Why do southern styles in general have so many forms, while northern styles relatively have fewer forms?
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Post by Nataraya on Sept 23, 2004 14:23:06 GMT -5
Many reasons you can think of, for instance the financial aspect. Secondly; because practitioners wanted to be allround fighters.
My late grandmaster Lai Ng Sam did wander throughout Southern China, with his teacher Hang Yat Siu. The Japanese were terrorizing the South, and so the traveled from village to village. When Hang Yat Siu was old and almost blind. He wrote introduction letters for his student, leading to an exchanging situation. This did lead - till 1949 – to a rather big curriculum. A mix of several systems, and some rare forms in it. For instance, we have one Golden Eagle Form, a Monkey Boxing Form, Eight Drunken Immortal form, Dragon Boxing form (not Hakka),………. In the meanwhile I heard that there are systems that exist, but still am missing a lot of information.
Many systems contain three forms, almost as standard. Later on new forms were added, probably for the reasons I mentioned above. As you probably know, the Ching Wu Association already spread a rather huge program. It might be that schools and systems wanted to follow such a concept? I do not know, just an idea.
For me it is about concepts and principles. Also, I realized that it is about quality and not quantity. Not completely true because the many exotic weapon forms were big fun to study, and gave me a clear impression what it is all about.
Finally, I believe strongly in a statement as “Start with Saam Tzien and end with Saam Tzien”. But also: ......... ENJOY. ;D
Warm regards.
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Post by nothingness on Sept 23, 2004 16:12:31 GMT -5
Nataraya, What kind of system are you learning? Does it also have Sanzhan (Samchien)? I am in Wuzuquan (Ngo Cho Kun). Of course, it begins with samchien and it ends with samchien .
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Post by brad pitbull on Sept 23, 2004 18:43:25 GMT -5
this sounds like an old shaw brothers movie hehehe
i dont know...such cultural diff may have many factors..like the previous poster said..economy is one. maybe the weather too may have somthing to do
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Post by Suhana LIM on Sept 24, 2004 19:17:59 GMT -5
this sounds like an old shaw brothers movie hehehe i dont know...such cultural diff may have many factors..like the previous poster said..economy is one. maybe the weather too may have somthing to do Da jia hao Not only because of the character and physical, the surrounding also influenced. Cheers.
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Post by Nataraya on Sept 25, 2004 3:22:00 GMT -5
My lineage is from Tit Kiu Sam [Leung kwan]. He was a student of Kwok Yan Sim Si. It is said that Kwok Yin was an abbot of a Shaolin temple in Fukien province. His kungfu brother was another famous martial artist gan faat Chan Si. Kwok Yan was an expert in Rock Body Heigung (Qigong).
Both men spread the arts to only three students Tit Kiu Sam and Ngaan brothers [ Ngaan Yu teng and Ngaan Tien Hung].
Tit Kiu Sam created a system of the art which is/ was known as Tit Sin Kuen [Tie Xian Quan], famous in and around Canton.
My research the last years was about the relationship between Tit Sin Kuen and Sanzhan. Although different in shape, it is clear that they are brothers from the same family. I would say that it is a more Cantonese presentation, but the roots can't be denied.
Tit Sin Kuen is a rather complex system with several layers. One of them is the introduction of the Four Feelings: Anger, Joy, Elation and Sadness. So far noty seen in Sanzhan. Eric helped me out with my research, and gave me material to look at, which tremendously help. Another colleague [Martin Watts] did the same, resulting in a broad range of Sanzhan's to look at, and so have a better impression of variety and taste/ flavor.
Besides this style, my late grandmaster and Sifu taught me: Hung Kuen, Flower Boxing, Siu lam Wing Chun Kuen, Yau Lung Paat Kwa Kuen (Swimming Dragon Paat Kwa, Lau Ga Boxing and some 'stand- alone' forms as: Golden Eagle Boxing, Monkey Boxing Form, Bung Bo, Choy Paat Hsien Kuen [Eight Drunken Immortals],....
That doesn't mean that I am an expert in it, absolutely not. But it is like mathematics, very form have a specific contribution. In our branch we mainly focus on Hung Kuen. The other systems I teach to some specific students.
Over the last 30 years I was able to put things on video, and so that it is preserved for next generations. For myself, I focus on specific sets only, such as Tit Sin Kuen and Yau Lung Pa kwa.
To come back to your statement: I am a believer of "Start with Tit Sin Kuen and end with Tit Sin Kuen". Although I relaize that Tit Sin is not enough to become a succesful fighter............. The power drive, is tremendous. It does change your 4 valve engine in a 16 valve engine.
Warm regards,
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 25, 2004 3:47:59 GMT -5
Hi Nataraya,
Did you follow up on the Fukien Lohan I told you about - I've looked and it is now apparent that the only emotions-driven form is Xi Nu Lohan or Happy, Angry Lohan. Still looking for others if any.
Part of the 108 Lohan form but definitely worth a zoom in. Only problem is - hard to find the teachers that Ven. Sek taught in Singapore. I will try again the next time I go back. I only do 72 of the 108. Last 36 techniques are probably the Xi Nu segment - taught only to very few in the Shaolin family.
I was looking at Chiu Chi Lam's TSK and he looks like he is doing Xi Nu in the opening sequences. Is your TSk like that? The clip is blurry but is that reverse Tun Thu that he is doing ?
Minghe sounds driven jin is still on my "to do" list - taking so long because the text is in phonetic Fuzhou - working with some MingHe teachers around here to compile into something that make sense to you.
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 25, 2004 3:57:27 GMT -5
For those of you who don't know this,
Nataraya is Dutch. ;D ;D ;D
A Dutch puttiing a lot of us Chinese to shame with his Kung Fu knowledge.
More reasons for me to think about going to Holland now - my wife wants to go there for the flowers, I want to go there for the Carlsbergs , Heinkeins and getting a taste of Nataraya's TSK.
;D ;D ;D
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Post by nothingness on Sept 25, 2004 5:09:54 GMT -5
I can't wait to see the video of the form!
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 25, 2004 8:06:52 GMT -5
Hi Nataraya, This just popped into mind :- Isn't there a form call "Sei Tai Phui Kuen" in Hung Fut ? The "4 Emotions" form. Is this anything near your TSK in terms of emotions trigger? Tiger Time!
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Post by Nataraya on Sept 25, 2004 10:32:23 GMT -5
Dear director Ling, if you want to fight, then say so!!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that I work in a rehabilitation center doesn't mean that I am 'disabled': ;D ;D ;D Really the Four disabled form is BEAUTIFUL, and no way you can compare it with Tit Sin Kuen. But I think I know what you mean, and I am FULL regret that I showed you my BEST portraits of the emotions. Listen well mister Ling!!! My wife told me that I am NOT that ugly as you might THINK I am. She said that I look more like Richard Gair. especially when it is dark. Other interesting forms from Hung Fut Pai are: Pak Mo Fistform, Iron Chopstick Gold Bowl, Night Sword, Fourteen Elbow, Drunken Immortals, Crazy Left Stick, Chong Cheung Sword, Yan Chi Hung's One Arm Form (we have a one arm form as part of Siu lam Wing Chun Kuen) AND ........... Choi King Man's Tit Sin Kuen. Back to my beauty case, without ANY Anger (HHHHMMMMM). Warm regards,
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Post by brad pitbull on Sept 25, 2004 11:36:59 GMT -5
its also interesting to note that ti sua kun(or tit sin) stands on a chien be...or the standard NCK stance...or maybe a little different.
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Post by nothingness on Sept 25, 2004 13:35:42 GMT -5
It is because southern styles are from one root. Over tie time, the masters's characters and his characters flavor the arts. However, in my opinion, once we go past the superficial layers, the underlying principles are very similar (if not the same). Hence, it is relatively easy for one style's practicioner to "understand" the usage of the movements from a different style.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 25, 2004 17:46:19 GMT -5
Dear director Ling, if you want to fight, then say so!!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that I work in a rehabilitation center doesn't mean that I am 'disabled': ;D ;D ;D Really the Four disabled form is BEAUTIFUL, and no way you can compare it with Tit Sin Kuen. But I think I know what you mean, and I am FULL regret that I showed you my BEST portraits of the emotions. Listen well mister Ling!!! My wife told me that I am NOT that ugly as you might THINK I am. She said that I look more like Richard Gair. especially when it is dark. Dear Crazy, Angry, Sad but mostly crazy Flying Dutchman, The honor of calling you "ugly" belongs to that man who likes to do his SanZhan naked in the seas off a Spanish island. I was merely indicating a "emotions" triggered or "intent" form not insinuating anything. Hahaha
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Post by Eric Ling on Sept 26, 2004 4:59:57 GMT -5
I think most Cantonese styles , especially Hung,Lau,Choy,Li and Mak Gar are IMHO, influenced by Lohan and Fut Gar of Shaolin.
If you were to look at all the abovementioned styles and even Choy Li Fut, you would likely see long ranges circular techniques using the fist and open palms in many of their forms.
The long range fist reminds me of Shaolin Lohan both Northern and Southern. The long range palm works is very Fut Gar.
Take Hung Gar’s Fu-Hoc for example – I think you can breakdown the form into 3 segments. The tiger / crane and Lohan sections.
I am acquainted with Jow Gar – which is sometimes known as “Starting with Hung and ending with Choy” Kung fu. And again I see the Lohan and Fut Gar touches everywhere.
In a certain aspect, most Cantonese kung fu takes on a “Northern” feel in term of range and jin expressions.
Of course I am not thinking Wing Chun/Bak Mei/Lung Ying or Southern Praying Mantis here. These styles do display Fukien flavor.
Take stance work for instance, most Cantonese repertoires include:-
4 level horse stance Climbing mountain stance Hanging leg stance Cross bow stance Single leg Crane stance
In Fukien styles, you are more liable to see:-
San Chiem stance 3 angles stance Maiden’s stance
And even the horse stance is “higher” that the Cantonese’s version.
I really think Cantonese kung fu is a mixed bag of many styles – northern and southern.
It is now emerging that Fukien played a significant role in many of their styles’ evolution.
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