The forms of Southern versus Northern

[pitbull]

we also have 4 level stance,and bow stance...although not as commonly seen but its usually 10-20% in most katas...

fujien and canton have a rich exchange of cultures.

[Nataraya]

Looked again over all the replies and realized that I didn’t talk (directly) about the amount of forms. So looked up for several Northern Shaolin curriculum and find out that the amount of forms are not less in quantity. See notes below:

“ Chang Quan was originally the generic term for a dozen or more schools of boxing who’s origins lie in the north of China. In the late Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 A.D.) when these were categorised into 32 forms by the wushu master – General Qi Jiguang, these included Cha Quan (Cha Family Boxing), Hua Quan (Flower Style Boxing), Hua Quan (China Style Boxing), Pao Quan (Cannon Fist Boxing), Hong Quan (Red Style Boxing), Shaolin Quan (Shaolin Style Boxing), Fanzi Quan (Lightening Fast Fist), Zha Quan (Zha Style Boxing), Chuo Jiao (Feet Poking Boxing) and Tan Tui (Leg Flicking Boxing).
In combat these styles emphasised speed and long strikes, and used distance to an advantage, hence the name ‘long-fist’. With swift advancing and retreating techniques to gain the initiative and keep an opponent off-guard, these styles exploited any opening.
The three styles that most contribute to modern Long Fist Boxing are Cha Quan, Hong Quan and Hua Quan. Cha Quan (Cha Family Boxing) traditionally consists of 10 routines combining internal and external exercises with emphasis on leg techniques. Cha Quan continuously alternates ascending and descending, and opening and closing movements in a graceful and clear manner. Hands and feet are combined to produce powerful force with minimal effort. Hua Quan (China Style Boxing) is known for its solid stances and lightening fast movements. Emphasis is on the mind directing qi internally to create a continuity of clear movements. Hong Quan (Red Boxing) is famous for its simple and straight-forward attacks. The style demands hardness, with powerful blows from the feet and fists, but with equal stress in softness. It has a strict composition of close attack and defence.

Chang Quan – Long Fist Boxing
by Tyler J Rowe


Another Internet source said:

“The name Chang Quan was first found in Qi Jiguang's work which mentioned 32 forms of Chang Quan. Later, however, the term Chang Quan gradually became a name referring to a variety of traditional northern schools of wushu, rather than to a distinct individual form. Hence, Chang Quan now refers to such styles as Zha Quan, Hua Quan, Pao Quan, Hong Quan, Hwa Quan, Fanzi Quan, Chuo Jiao and Shaolin Quan and Tan Tui. All have strong, swift and extended movements, with many leaps and turns. In combat they emphasize taking initiative in attack, making long strikes, advancing and retreating swiftly and seeking to beat the opponent by speed.”<br>
Personal I think the curriculum of Northern style Praying Mantis, is a very good example. Please visit the next homepage of a friend:

www.geocities.com/sifu_carl/forms.html

Notice that this Northern system have more then 110 sets in its curriculum. I think far one of the biggest in China. Choy Lee Fut have lesser forms. I think at the end we can conclude that there are no differences in quantity of curriculum.

We touched already the Key, its about principles and concepts and NOT about quantity of forms.

Kind regards

[nothingness]

My kudos to Nataraya.


It seems that you have done heavy research on CMA. I am happy that you can be here to share your knowledge with us.

[pitbull]

so, changquan is a breakdown,summary of popular northern stylkes? am i correct?

[Eric Ling]

Hi Nataraya,

Are we on the same page here ?

I think what you listed is collective northern forms spreaded over many styles.

In fact I kinda agree with the first posting - if you take one particular northern style and measure it against a southern, generally you find more forms with the latter.

I might be wrong here but I always thought that CLF has over 200 forms.

Another perspective is this :

The 5 major Northern (in your post) versue the 5 major Canton styles - more forms found in the Canton styles.

[Nataraya]

Okay, sorry that my information was incomplete. I prefer to talk about Cantonese systems, because I have a proper impression about these systems and curriculum. The most popular systems of Kwantung are the Five family systems, mentioned in one of your letters . Their curriculum are all not that big, especially when we are facing the barehand forms.
If we are looking to the worldwide popular styles of Kwantung, then we have a different combination. Wing Chun and Choy Lee Fut are very popular systems with many practitioners. But we do not need to under-estimate the amount of Hakka practitioners. From all of these systems, Choy Lee Fut have a lot of forms. No way above the 100, as in Chat Sing Tong Long.

I can imagine that there is one individual teacher collecting extra forms, but in common, this is not the fact. I like to trigger readers to have a look on the Net . One of the popular teachers (in the West) is Doc Fai Wong. I agree he is teaching a lot of forms, but only five of them carry the essence. I do hope that soon I will be able to insert an image in this forum. On it, the curriculum (in Chinese/ English) of the CLF branch.

Eric, we are facing the same page. In the worst scenario we can say that Chat Sing Tong Long Kuen and Choy Lee Fut spread many forms.

More interesting is to face the differences in principles and concepts. A form is just “one story” of ideas…………………<br>
Kind regards,

“ Heaven gives and Earth receives. Heaven animates and Earth gives birth”.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Nataraya,

Right on the dot!

Forms and techniques are “demonstration” of principles and concepts.

I am with you here 150%. All the original founders worked from principles and concepts that they “unlocked”.

Okay, this is where we must reallocate the discussion to – the fundamental principles of the individual style – the soul of the system.

I am going to start the ball rolling:-

The 8 basic doctrines of Fuzhou/Whooping Crane:-

1. Tun – to bring in your chi
2. Tu – to release your chi
3. Fo – to float with the arms or legs
4. Chen – to sink the chi into your Dantien
5. Pu – to direct your jin from top down
6. Ti – using the elbow to direct the shoulders
7. Yong – to direct your jin to the finger joints and to hit and return like a spring. A signature Whooping Crane doctrine that is observable in many techniques and forms.
8. Than – to strike without chambering. Don’t do this and you are way off from Fuzhou Crane.

Nataraya, I understand that this is a delicate topic, perhaps too sensitive for public discussion.

To open up this line of discussion here and knowing that they are foragers with questionable motives visiting is disturbing.

If you don’t mind, I would like move this discussion to a password protected area. That way we can invite friendly members for discussions with peace of mind.

I hate to say this but I am starting to agree with Martin and should have created a by-invitation-only forum.

Back to you.

[pitbull]

good idea

[Suhana LIM]

Eric said:

Hi Nataraya,

Right on the dot!

Forms and techniques are “demonstration” of principles and concepts.

I am with you here 150%. All the original founders worked from principles and concepts that they “unlocked”.

Okay, this is where we must reallocate the discussion to – the fundamental principles of the individual style – the soul of the system.

I am going to start the ball rolling:-

The 8 basic doctrines of Fuzhou/Whooping Crane:-

1. Tun – to bring in your chi
2. Tu – to release your chi
3. Fo – to float with the arms or legs
4. Chen – to sink the chi into your Dantien
5. Pu – to direct your jin from top down
6. Ti – using the elbow to direct the shoulders
7. Yong – to direct your jin to the finger joints and to hit and return like a spring. A signature Whooping Crane doctrine that is observable in many techniques and forms.
8. Than – to strike without chambering. Don’t do this and you are way off from Fuzhou Crane.

Nataraya, I understand that this is a delicate topic, perhaps too sensitive for public discussion.

To open up this line of discussion here and knowing that they are foragers with questionable motives visiting is disturbing.

If you don’t mind, I would like move this discussion to a password protected area. That way we can invite friendly members for discussions with peace of mind.

I hate to say this but I am starting to agree with Martin and should have created a by-invitation-only forum.

Back to you.

Eric ni hao
If your forum only for "invited" people, maybe I will become "homeless" Or someone might call you racist Cheers.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Suhana,

Nin Hao.

First of all, you will not be “homeless”. I will be flattered to have you as a member.

Secondly, yes I am a “RACIST” – a very big one.

I am absolutely opposed to the race that pretends, lies and cons.

I am not perfect – my wife will tell you that.

But I really do make an effort not to join that “race”.

Xie Xie

[Suhana LIM]

Eric said:

Hi Suhana,

Nin Hao.

First of all, you will not be “homeless”. I will be flattered to have you as a member.

Secondly, yes I am a “RACIST” – a very big one.

I am absolutely opposed to the race that pretends, lies and cons.

I am not perfect – my wife will tell you that.

But I really do make an effort not to join that “race”.

Xie Xie

Eric ni hao
What a relief! But you must promise that this forum will not suddenly" BLANK." It is not nice lah, not respecting the members who spend time and energy for their contributions to the forum.
So you are openly admited that you are a RACIST, but towards those who PRETENDS, LIES, AND CONS. Btw, do you remember the movie called SEX LIES AND VIDEOTAPE ? Cheers.

[Nataraya]

Eric, I think I became more "open minded" then you are, not mentioned to sound negative. When I am saying that there is no secret, I mean it from the bottom of my Heart. We both no that practicing the arts for 30+ years say nothing at all. Even practicing the art 50+ years will absolutely give you the same sensation that there is still much to gather and polish.
You only can absorb information when your foundation is strong, so when time is ready. I do not believe that a practitioner can jump directly at a higher stage.

Besides this, there are other ways to make a selection. That's making use of the old poetic way of descriptions. In fact this is the way we should communicate, if we are intending to preserve tradition. Again, proper basics is necessary. Resulting in a 'natural' selection.

It's like reading a good book. Suddenly - even after reading that book over a few times - you are able to translate the deeper meaning. And find answers you didn't notice before. I can say that this happens many times with me, and actually [Thank God] it still happens. Very nice feeling of developing more knowledge.

Eric, you are the architect of this beautiful forum. I am just passenger. My advise: follow your Heart.

Warm regards,

[Eric Ling]

Hi Nataraya,

If this were to be Martin talking, he would be saying “I understand the hair now!”<br>
Torn between 2 cultures – your ghost maybe?

Yes there should be “no” secrets – that is why I taught in the US. The crane should find new breeding ground. Or as Suhana put it – fly everywhere. I am not going to clip wings!

This would be the ideal - if we all agree to walk a straight path – no shortcuts.

Natural selection? I think that would be another ideal.

But, we will follow your way and see where that road leads. I always have the option to walk the other way.

Join Martin and do my SanJin naked in a Sarawak river – hahaha

[nothingness]

I don't think it is called being racist. It is called being selective. A person is held responsible for to whom and of what he is teaching; even the Good Book says that.

If a pianist, a cook, a tennis player, or a painter can choose who he/she will pass the expertise to, why can't a martial artists do the same?

[Suhana LIM]

Da jia ni men hao
I agree, we should be more careful and "selective" to whom we want to pass on the arts to. It's not only about how many students do we have, but also what are the qualities of our students. Cheers.