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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 11, 2004 21:07:50 GMT -5
Good day Eric. Hmm...the half of the poem already describes the flying kick. I'm sorry if I sound rude here, but I find it extremely unusual for a Southern system to include flying kicks. Maybe this is due to my lack of exposure, but the flowery kicking stuff I have seen all come from Northern systems. Is White Crane one of the exceptions that include flying kicks? Warmest regards, Tze Hou Hi Tze Hou, Not all Northern kicks are flamboyant or flowery. - I guarantee you that. Again, I think we are talking about WuShu, loaded with sensationalized high and aerial kicks that look exciting but………<br> If you look at traditional Chang, Hua and Cha Quan, you’ll discover many high gate kicks that make a lot of sense from the practical angle. In Hua Quan, they do a “3 and not touching ground” kick combo that is simply brilliant. In “Bi Men Tang Lang” or “Secret Gate Praying Mantis” they have a series of kicks that reminds me of Capoiera – the Brazilian MA. All that jumping, spinning and landing in a full spit is limited mainly to performance Wushu. In the South, kicks are not completely kept to middle and low gate. Every now and then, you do find a couple of high and even jumping kicks. Cases in point:- 1. The “tornado” kick could be found in many Southern systems. In Shaolin, I do a lower broom sweep and from the lowered position, launch a “tornado” kick. 2. The jumping “spear” kicks in another typical Southern high kick. Using the left spear kick to opponent groin and followed by a jumping right spear kick to opponent chin/throat is something done in many Fukien systems including my Fuzhou Crane. 3. The jumping scissors – well KongHan talked about this in his NCK but this kick could be found in Shaolin Kao Kun also. These are the more widespread Southern jumping kicks. There are others that are isolated to specific Southern systems.
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Post by essence on Dec 11, 2004 23:27:16 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
I have never heard of the tornado kick before. Is the Chinese name for this called "Xuan Feng Tui"? If so, I have always thought this was made up, could you show me how this kick is executed?
Ah the Northern "3 and not touching ground kick". Something which I saw in a clip between a Shaolin monk and a TKD blackbelt. When I saw how the Shaolin exponent held his guard, I felt it was funny, not like how I have been taught. His basic arsenal were kicks, though not limited to that, and when he executed the jump and issued 3 kicks, I was left wondering if this was a Southern style exponent.
The jumping spear kick which you described sounds very much like a technique to "climb up" the opponent? If so, I understand what you mean. I was taught to break the knee and use that to "climb" into the neck/face with the hands.
This topic is very interesting, I have never known Southern styles to encompass such a range of jumping kicks.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 12, 2004 0:38:44 GMT -5
Good day Eric. I have never heard of the tornado kick before. Is the Chinese name for this called "Xuan Feng Tui"? If so, I have always thought this was made up, could you show me how this kick is executed? Ah the Northern "3 and not touching ground kick". Something which I saw in a clip between a Shaolin monk and a TKD blackbelt. When I saw how the Shaolin exponent held his guard, I felt it was funny, not like how I have been taught. His basic arsenal were kicks, though not limited to that, and when he executed the jump and issued 3 kicks, I was left wondering if this was a Southern style exponent. The jumping spear kick which you described sounds very much like a technique to "climb up" the opponent? If so, I understand what you mean. I was taught to break the knee and use that to "climb" into the neck/face with the hands. This topic is very interesting, I have never known Southern styles to encompass such a range of jumping kicks. Warmest regards, Tze Hou Hi Tze Hou, This is odd, the “Xuan Feng Tui” is one of the most common CKF kicks both Northern and Southern. I am positive you have seen this in traditional forms etc…<br> The “jumping spear” could be used in many situations. 1. The one that you described. 2. Start with “Wing Chun” stamping kick and jump kick with the other leg. 3. When one leg is trapped, you could again jump kick with the other leg. Except that in this case, it’s more a jumping turning kick. In Fuzhou Ancestral Crane, this is done with a twist. If one leg is trapped, I will jump kick your trapping hands at the elbow region to either “break” or release. This technique is taken from “Saik San Pwhy Kiu”.
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Post by essence on Dec 12, 2004 0:59:05 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
Perhaps I have seen the kick but do not know the name of the technique. To my knowledge, I have not seen Hung Gar exponents do a jumping kick, and I would like to find out if Hung Gar indeed does teach some jumping kicks?
Using another kick to break a trap, would this technique be found in other Southern systems as well? I am inclined to think that using a kick to break an elbow is thick with Northern flavour, is this so? Also, does White Crane cover more jumping kicks?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Dec 12, 2004 1:25:36 GMT -5
Good day Eric. Perhaps I have seen the kick but do not know the name of the technique. To my knowledge, I have not seen Hung Gar exponents do a jumping kick, and I would like to find out if Hung Gar indeed does teach some jumping kicks? Using another kick to break a trap, would this technique be found in other Southern systems as well? I am inclined to think that using a kick to break an elbow is thick with Northern flavour, is this so? Also, does White Crane cover more jumping kicks? Warmest regards, Tze Hou Hi Tze Hou, Let's not forget that the founder of White Crane, Fang Chi Niang, was taught Northern Lohan Men by her father. As for the other White Crane kicks, I will do them in the "Private" area. I see that Russ has got a "Wu Lin Tien Ti" link in his site, so maybe this is going to happen sooner than we think.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 12, 2004 3:32:37 GMT -5
Tze Hou, there is a double forwards [Dragon] Kick in GJFFK, that's our branch. I have seen it in some other branches of Hung Kuen as well. It is just before heading to the last road. First left kick, then right high kick. Fall deep into bow stance with a fore arm block, backfist.......then the sweeping/ seui............
Further Chan Hon Chung have in its Mui Fa kuen a kind of Tornado Kick, but not the complete one. We have the complete Tornado Kick in Mok Ga Pee Sau, or the knive set of Mok Family style. 360 degrees turn in it. Mok Ga is the Kicking style of Kwantung province.
Regards,
Evert.
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 12, 2004 3:37:28 GMT -5
In the old Shaolin systems; Gau Sap Ying (Ten Animal) and Gau Ng Ying Kuen (old Five Animal style) there are jumping kicks and a jumping knee's too.
The jumping kick is in the Crane part, and found in Gau Ng Ying Kuen. In the Lion section of Gau Sap Ying Kuen you will find the jumping knee and double claws to the head/ neck to break it. Very close to a Muay Thai skill, mean!
But I am afraid that this is all with links toward Hung Kuen. WE have a Sap Fu Jaw form, which my grandmaster named the kicking set of Hung Kuen. But in this set you see that there is always ontact with the earth......
warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by essence on Dec 12, 2004 6:55:08 GMT -5
Good day Evert.
Ah my age is catching up with me, my memory is failing. Indeed, there is a sort of spinning kick we do in Moi Fah. In fact, the Moi Fah I have been taught has 2 kicks in which both feet leave the ground.
The spinning kick is done after we have turned 180 degrees. After completing the routine at 180 degrees, we turn to face the front, blocking with the left hand in a cat stance (right foot behind). This is followed by a jump and using the right foot to kick in a round manner to meet the left hand. This has been explained to me as the left hand has blocked a punch and holds it while the right leg breaks the elbow.
The 2nd time we leave the ground is right at the end of the form, although the jump in not necessary, my Sifu makes us practice it this way. In the ending, we use a finger attack on to the front with the left hand which meets the right foot at chin level. Before the right foot lands, we jump and issue a kick/knee with the left leg to switch into cat stance for the closing salute.
Now, thinking about Moi Fah in these terms has led me to think about this form more. Is this a Northern form? I do not know the history of this form, and have been told it is a basic form, sort of like an introductory form, to the basic techniques found in Hung Gar. So the question remains, where did this form come from?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 12, 2004 7:13:32 GMT -5
Tze Hou,
Much is said about Mui Fa system. On SFO even a letter directly linked it to Ng Mui. I do not reply anymore about these statements. I let them loop in their own thoughts/ stories.
Mui Fa has been a religieus sect and a kind of gang, with there own specific system. I did forget the name of the inventor, but will do my best to ask my Chinese student. He have books explaining more details about this (religieous) sect.
In our case it is linked with Tit Kiu Sam, in fact we receive many forms from this system, such as:
Mui Fa Kwan (eight feetstick), Mui Fa Daan/ Seung Do, Mui Fa Kuen, Mui Fa Cheung (spear) and I belief that the butterfly knives (Ji Mo Do) are part of that system. Characteristic is the opening + salute. The strange thing is that I have not seen other Hung Kuen branches doing these Mui Fa sets. The Mui Fa Kuen pattern is the same (namely Sap Tji, cross pattern). But our postures are different. We do not have the Tornado kick in Mui fa, also our version do present the Five Animals and Five Elements clearly.
I can't help it, but it is a fact. The explanantion of the ingredients above, make fistform not a novice form. Our novice form is Lau Ga Kuen. To translate the Elements/ Animals in correct flavor, is very hard for the students. This together with the little jumps, make it advanced. GJFFK and LGK are much easier!
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by essence on Dec 12, 2004 7:37:53 GMT -5
Good day Evert.
Our Moi Fah's opening salute is the a palm and fist in cat stance, which I find is the common salute. However, instead of stepping through Lao Ma into the cat stance, we jump, as taught by Sigung.
I do not think our version of Moi Fah represents the 5 animals/elements completely, thus, I am very interested in your Moi Fah Kuen. So the only things our versions share in common would be the Sap Tji? If my memory serves me correctly, our Moi Fah covers Tiger, Snake, Metal, Fire and Earth.
Indeed, I would find the correct representations of the 5 elements and animals quite a big task. If I may ask, would you say your version of Moi Fah be as hard to do properly as Sup Ying? Does your Moi Fah cover the internal aspects of the style?
Sorry to bring this thread off topic Eric, but Evert has aroused my curiousity immensely.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 13, 2004 3:06:35 GMT -5
The Five pedals of the Plumblossom are found back in hand and stepping patterns. In this case jumping forwards and backwards are the Five step patern as seen in the flower. This is significant for Mui fa in our system, you start with your left leg.......
The first animals that is presented are: snake and panther, the last Elements presented in the form are: earth, wood and finally fire.
The most essential aspect is the translation of each flavor. A very hard thing for the novice to understand. Also the variety of handpatterns are complex, certainly in relation with the stepping and jumps. Logic because you can't expect that in the beginning. Coordination of hand feet and breath can be tough in such a stage.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by essence on Dec 14, 2004 11:20:34 GMT -5
Good day Evert.
Ah I see, it must be 2 different forms then. Thank you for the breakdown, most insightful, and thank you to the other members for bearing with me bringing the thread off topic.
Gratefully, Tze Hou
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 14, 2004 11:43:32 GMT -5
Hello Tze Hou,
Thanks to Russ, I was able to view/ observe Mui Fa kuen as done by Kwong Wing Lam. Exact the same name but from Northern origin. Nothing, but then also nothing is the same. Straight line choreography, mainly long range skills, several roads, etceteras.
I am sure that more Mui Fa Kuen's can be found in the hundreds/ thousands of (sub) styles. Doesn't matter, as the principles of that form -for that system - find its way to the practitioner. Maybe you must see it as Sanchin. Its just a name with loads of varieties, still it is a Sanchin form..........
Enjoy the art,
Evert.
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Post by essence on Dec 14, 2004 11:54:28 GMT -5
Good day Evert.
Sorry, but I do not understand what you meant by straight line choreography? Does this mean the Kwong Wing Lam's Moi Fah only goes in front and back and not in a Sup Tji pattern?
From what I have been told, Moi Fah is meant to impart to me the knowledge of how to attack, defend combined with advance and retreat, and I regard this as the principle of the form. Have you seen the Moi Fah from my lineage and does it hold the same principles as yours?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 15, 2004 1:31:51 GMT -5
Hello Tze Hou,
Indeed straight line choreography is forward and backward. Like the Tang Lang set Bung Bo. Bung Bo consist of four roads or 4 times moving before you end. Some sets have more roads, a rather common pattern.
I do know your Mui fa Kuen set very well, and have it on tape from many (if not) all branches. Sifu SS Leong (Seattle) have this in his book Beginning Hung Gar. Use the search machine to see the book. And ofcourse part of Mui fa kuen was on the "Way of the Warriors" [BBC] done by the students of the great grandmaster Chan Hon Chung. I will try to convert it to WMV file and send it to Russ and to you.
Our version is much more Siu lam orientated, more handpatterns and different powers. Chan Hon Chung (and Leong) version is much more staggato, so suitable for the novice. I will see if I can convert one from my students for you so that you have an image.
It is very hard for me to explain this in words, because we are talking about taste/ flavour. My English language is too porr to explain this in correct English words.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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