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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 20, 2004 2:50:52 GMT -5
Okay, I think we are all in tandem as far as the component dissection of kung fu is concerned.
• The history and culture.
• The philosophy and morality.
• The art and science.
• The evolution and future.
Without overlapping, can we start discussing just the art of fighting for a change?
During my training days, many friends from non-Chinese martial arts were fond of saying:-
“Kung Fu is really pretty but not practical in real fights” – are you with this statement? Tell us how you train to fight and some fight stories please……
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 20, 2004 8:23:53 GMT -5
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Post by konghan on Oct 20, 2004 14:31:23 GMT -5
Okay, I think we are all in tandem as far as the component dissection of kung fu is concerned. During my training days, many friends from non-Chinese martial arts were fond of saying:- “Kung Fu is really pretty but not practical in real fights??are you with this statement? Tell us how you train to fight and some fight stories please…… I 101% donot agree, in fact it was becuase of all these kind of statement & stereotyping of kung fu that gave me the motivation & determination to train & prove they are wrong.  That's me at 19 yr old in dark kung fu pants. I choose to wear my kung fu pants so that I can be identify as one & that the public will know that I am of kung fu background. And up to this day I believ that kung fu can stand up well on its own it boils down to proper training. My training consist of ngo cho kun principle on forms, bag work, sparing & workouts & it worked.  |
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Oct 20, 2004 18:34:18 GMT -5
Kung fu is for fighting. It is not what you learn, but how you train. If you train to fight, then you will be able to fight. If you train forms only, well then your forms will be good but your fighting will lack.
I was definitely taught how to fight. To me the key is to keep it simple and to learn to take a hit, because you will get hit no matter what. And in the heat of a fight, there is no time for complex movements, only simple ones.
However, even learning how to fight is useless if you do not have the heart to fight.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 20, 2004 21:16:59 GMT -5
Kung fu is for fighting. It is not what you learn, but how you train. If you train to fight, then you will be able to fight. If you train forms only, well then your forms will be good but your fighting will lack. I was definitely taught how to fight. To me the key is to keep it simple and to learn to take a hit, because you will get hit no matter what. And in the heat of a fight, there is no time for complex movements, only simple ones. However, even learning how to fight is useless if you do not have the heart to fight. Thanks guy for those responses, For a while back there, I was thinking I am the only one keen in this topic – phew! Okay, during my younger training days, I had to put up with “Kung Fu is for show only” smirks. Mainly coming from those doing non-Chinese martial arts. Most of these I disregarded, remembering what my teachers taught me. But there were numerous cases that I had “no choice” – literally shoved against the wall. Bloody noses became a part of my growing up. For what it was worth, all these altercations taught me “guts”. My first style Kung Fu was Siao Lim – hard, really hard training. Besides basics, forms and 2 men drills, we were taught many hand/leg hardening procedures. But free sparring was only done very infrequently. Fighting for real made me see that “fighting skills” is not a by-product of doing forms etc… You need to fight! Most fights I won then came from refusing to give in – notwithstanding the bloody noses and all. To be frank, I was starting to doubt my kung fu training, until I met Ah Joo. Ah Joo was a complete contrast of your “kung fu is deadly so we cannot spar in class” philosophy. Himself a pugilistic champion, Ah Joo was a consummate fighter. With hands so hard and devastating, he was actually nicknamed “Iron Fist of Siao Lim”. His kicks and chin-na were equally damaging. Many of his fallen opponents talked of him as the “fighting god”. Training under Ah Joo was about sparring – every training session. All the Siao Lim forms/techniques started to make sense. You could say that all my earlier misgivings disappeared. Kung Fu is as effective a fighting art as any. It is really about how you train and the person training you. If you just want to do forms, fine. But if you are serious about handling yourself confidently in physical confrontations, simply practicing forms is truly insufficient. All my teachers after Ah Joo were fighters. Ah Teck is another fighting-chicken. I remember Ah Teck saying; kung fu training without fighting is like a gun without bullets. My White Crane teachers, Mok Tai, Wen Shi and Choon Cheok were all proven proficient fighters in many exchanges. Their period in Singapore was punctuated by much racial strife and skirmishes. Being able to fight is not an academic exercise but a tool of survival. I really think it is important for those of us who were taught how to fight in Kung Fu, to preserve and pass on the training methodologies. Really hate to be called "Sick men of the East" again.  |
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Post by Suhana LIM on Oct 21, 2004 5:35:45 GMT -5
Kung fu is for fighting. It is not what you learn, but how you train. If you train to fight, then you will be able to fight. However, even learning how to fight is useless if you do not have the heart to fight. Da jia ni men hao Fatman, I can understand if you said that kungfu is for fighting. That's exactly how my perception about it decades ago. But to be honest, kungfu is much more than just for defeating your opponents. I totally agree that in fighting, the heart to fight or BRAVERY is the most important factor. In kungfu we have the saying : "YI DAN, ER LI, SAN GONG FU." which means "FIRST, BRAVERY; SECOND, POWER; AND THIRD, TECHNIQUE." No matter how many styles or techniques you have, how powerful your punches or kicks are, they mean nothing without this bravery factor. Cheers. |
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 21, 2004 7:17:57 GMT -5
Da jia ni men hao Fatman, I can understand if you said that kungfu is for fighting. That's exactly how my perception about it decades ago. But to be honest, kungfu is much more than just for defeating your opponents. I totally agree that in fighting, the heart to fight or BRAVERY is the most important factor. In kungfu we have the saying : "YI DAN, ER LI, SAN GONG FU." which means "FIRST, BRAVERY; SECOND, POWER; AND THIRD, TECHNIQUE." No matter how many styles or techniques you have, how powerful your punches or kicks are, they mean nothing without this bravery factor. Cheers. Argh, Suhana Don't forget we also say "Yi Gao Dan Ta" - the higher your skill, the braver you become. So it looks that bravery and skills are interdependent. Fighting training involves training your "bravery". It is not restricted to physical training but mental/spiritual as well. That is how complete fighting training should be. |
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Post by Suhana LIM on Oct 21, 2004 7:40:01 GMT -5
Eric ni hao "LIANG QIANG XIANG YU; YONG ZHE SHENG," which means "WHEN TWO STRONG (FIGHTERS) MEET, THE BRAVE ONE WILL WIN." Yes, the more you mastered your arts, the braver you will be. But even among two experienced and skilled individuals, the one with more dan (bravery) surely will win. Bravery is the state of mind filled with courage and fearlesness. Cheers. |
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Post by konghan on Oct 21, 2004 8:15:27 GMT -5
Eric ni hao "LIANG QIANG XIANG YU; YONG ZHE SHENG," which means "WHEN TWO STRONG (FIGHTERS) MEET, THE BRAVE ONE WILL WIN." Yes, the more you mastered your arts, the braver you will be. But even among two experienced and skilled individuals, the one with more dan (bravery) surely will win. Bravery is the state of mind filled with courage and fearlesness. Cheers. Fear, the one that let fear overcome him/her will lose.  Forms & two person drill set sparing will help develop that sense of confidence, technique, timing, power, endurance, focusing & take away fear & replace it with bravery. Forms is the spirit & soul of kung fu. |
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 21, 2004 10:07:50 GMT -5
Fear, the one that let fear overcome him/her will lose. Forms & two person drill set sparing will help develop that sense of confidence, technique, timing, power, endurance, focusing & take away fear & replace it with bravery. Forms is the spirit & soul of kung fu. Hey Konghan, Not rejecting that forms/drills are backbones of Kung Fu. Do you think just doing forms/drills prepare you enough for a real fight? From the pix you posted, you must be active in tournaments. Didn’t you train more than forms for these? I am, not so much, talking about tournaments but more street fighting. |
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Post by konghan on Oct 21, 2004 12:38:15 GMT -5
Hey Konghan, Not rejecting that forms/drills are backbones of Kung Fu. Do you think just doing forms/drills prepare you enough for a real fight? From the pix you posted, you must be active in tournaments. Didn’t you train more than forms for these? I am, not so much, talking about tournaments but more street fighting. Personally I believe that training street fighting & ring tournament are different. Usually having the ability to fight in a ring would also allow one to fight well in the street but to be able to fight well in a street doesnot necessarily mean one can fight well in a ring. To prepare to fight in a ring it is important to know the rules & to have lots of stamina & endurance. Stamina & endurance correspond to speed, technique application, mobility, power & awareness. Low on stamina & endurance will result with the figther becoming a seating duck. In a ring fight, one is facing an opponent who is also a skill fighter & the fight rule is constraint with tournament rules & regulation. In the street, scenario & circumstances are different, muggers & theives usually doesnot want to attract much attention & most of the time they are not skill fighters they are just out for a quick grab. In a street fight one can use all available technique to defend him/ herself & fights usually ends very fast. Also, in the streets risky confrontation can be avoided & call for police assistance is always available. It is a lot harder to train for ring tournament than it is for street fighting. I sincerely believe that forms & drill will help develop ones fighting ability & I say that not only base on my own personal opinion & expereince but also base on what my late Sifu Lo King Hui have been teaching & his emphasis on the proper way to train in forms & drills to develop that fighting ability. Yes, I train in more than forms, but kung fu training & I know that you know it consist of forms, drills & work outs. Other fighting arts concentrate only on workouts & drills. I use the forms as my foundation in developing my drills & techniques & I use workouts like weights, chin ups, running but I took running away & substitute it with forms becuase I found out that doing forms in full power & speed is equivalent of doing miles of running. And the difference between running & doing forms is that running develop stamina, endurance & leg power but forms develop stamina, endurance, footwork, body & eye coordination, focusing, leg power & spirit. In a short summary my training would be: 1. forms 2. set sparing 3. drills, like bag work, kick bag, punching bag working out on combination attack & defense, leg grabbing, takedowns in which I use techniques that are found in ngo cho kun. 4. work outs like push ups, chin ups, sit ups, use of weights & stretching. 5. contact sparing |
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Oct 21, 2004 18:30:42 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong. I also believe there is a lot more to CMA than just fighting. However, you must always remember that MA is for fighting. Once you lose sight of that, you lose a great part of the arts. A lot of teachers, particularly in arts like taiji, only teach their arts for health not for fighting. IMO in doing this they lose more than half their art because without the fighting aspect the art is not complete.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 22, 2004 1:01:07 GMT -5
Agree, agree and agree Kung Fu has got many levels. Like I mentioned at the start of this thread, no overlapping please. To fight or not to fight is another topic for another day in another thread. Here, we just want to share, the art and science of fighting. I know I am not alone when I say; When I fight, I want to win. So it all about preparing to win. |
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Post by konghan on Oct 22, 2004 14:32:37 GMT -5
In training kung fu now adays is totally different from our master's time. Training in kung fu during our masters time means also training to fight, fighting & kung fu goes hand in hand.
But now, people train for several reasons. They train to fight, train for knowledge, train for health or training to preserve the art it self or just for the sake of training.
An instructor or teacher must now ask or find out a students priority or reason to train & work on that purpose.
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Post by nothingness on Oct 22, 2004 15:08:40 GMT -5
Greetings Da Jia Men Hao, Been busy lately. Sorry for not replying. I believe that the fundamental kungfu training is similar. Form training at the beginning level is adding the amunitions; teaching the students about the potential weapons. Physical training is akin to adding the power of those weapons. At a more advanced level, training (including form) is to reduce the unecessary movements so that the movements can be efficient and effective. Somewhere at this level I see a split. Either one wants to focus on the self-defense or to the ring training. There are some overlaps, but I don't think that one can ride 2 boats with each leg on a boat. At a more advanced level it involves more inner aspects. Your characters mold your training and your training molds your characters. It involves a deep understanding on the law of the universe. What empowers each other. Yin is not the opposite of Yang; Yin is the inner aspect of Yang. A great Yang has a great Yin. Sometimes what we think is Yang is actually Yin yet it doesn't matter. Inner and outer keeps changing. Now going back to planet Earth . Sparring is unavoidable to test our understanding (that will prove the efficiency and effectiveness). However, a premature sparring will not yield to anything but pain. Overemphasizing on the sparring will make one loses the accumulate knowledge of the arts that have been gathered for hundred years by the previous masters (Gong Fu). It will be akin to the need of re-inventing the wheel all over again. |
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Forms & two person drill set sparing will help develop that sense of confidence, technique, timing, power, endurance, focusing & take away fear & replace it with bravery.