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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 5:04:27 GMT -5
Evert ni hao Qi, Yin Yang, Wu Hsing (Five Elements), Pa Kua (Eight Trigrams), certainly not an easy things to talk and discuss. These are the foundations for Chinese Arts (Martial, Medicine, and Feng Shui.) Cheers.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 5:15:51 GMT -5
Da jia ni men hao Mountain, if we look from the material it made of (which is stone) is Yang. And water is Yin. But if we look from their motions, mountain is yin because it is static. While water is yang because it is moving. Man is yang and women is yin. But if there is a man with feminine behaviour, we can say that he is yang with more yin characteristics. But a woman with more masculine behaviour, she is yin with more yang in her. Cheers.
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 5, 2004 5:59:01 GMT -5
Correct, but the most essential aspect of all these philosophies/ models is , that it is constantly changing. I had professional educations in TCM and Herbology, besides the 30+ years of CMA. Whatever I conclude, in 1 second later it can be changed to different nature.
Five Elements is interesting, but FAR from being complete. The French schools of Acupuncture are closely related to Cambodia and crazy about the Five Element theories. It is very hard for practitioners to understand that it is all relative. When you told them to look to nature, then some can grasp the essence. But in the meantime you realize that it is all grey. Your grey will look definitely different then my grey. This depending upon experience, foundation, observation and (very important) interpretations. Still we both are correct at the end.
For me, it is a way of looking to nature, and understand the process behind it. It is great to analyse a patient and see the dysbalance. It is great to use Wind points and notice that patients change within a few seconds. others completely have a black out due to the sudden flow of qi. Vital points, exactly the same. The Wind points have such an impact on physical and mental condition. On the other hand you will see that an Earth point means 'death in a week'. The question is how come? I would say: Look to nature and you understand the message. Yes, indeed, wind does not belong to the Five Element model. But play an important role too.
You will not find the answer in Yan and yang, neither in Wu Hang. It's the totall picture you need, your observations and interpretations.
I would say: start with studying the poems that come along with your system. Then start asking questions to your teacher, and see if you grab the classical translation. You will enter a whole new world with an unbelievable depth and beauty. Suddenly a punch is just a strike to hurt your opponent. Hurting someone is so d**n easy, and absolutely NOT the path for growth and spiritual development..........
Kind regards,
Evert.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 6:27:35 GMT -5
Evert ni hao Not only from my sifu and elders I got so much important knowledges and wisdoms. As one of the world's cradle of civilasations, we the Chinese also have the most valuable resources, such as "I CHING" and "HUANG DI NEI JING." They are my sources of infromation. "LOOK UP TO OBSERVE THE SKY, BOW THE HEAD TO EXAMINE THE EARTH AND NATURE." - I CHING Cheers.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 5, 2004 8:16:10 GMT -5
;DHi everybody,
All I did was ask an uncomplicated left or fight question and look at what happened?
We are summoning the dragons and tigers hahahaha.
How typical Chinese can you get?
Back to the question of male-left, female-right convention, even my wife (who is not very keen in my Kung Fu obsession) talks about this. Seems that this convention cross over into many other areas of Chinese practices like palmistry.
If you consult a Chinese palmist and you are a guy, the palmist will use your left hand to read you fortune etc…<br> A guy wears his wedding band on the left and the woman on the right…<br> Are all these just sheer coincidences?
But the one thing that I agree with totally is interpretation. We might all be using the same text – I-Ching, Tien Su and etc, but it still boils down to how we infer.
Maybe, this is the beauty within.
You take a Kung Fu form, like say Hung Gar Fu-Hoc. Different players would understand this form differently. As long as principles are not desecrated, I think this is not wrong.
And Chas is also right that we should not restrict ourselves to one sided training. To be ambidextrous is not an option. It is a must.
It is exactly like saying we cannot choose the genre of the fight. We take what comes and overcome. This really means you must be ready for left, right, standing or not scenarios.
;D ;D ;D
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 5, 2004 8:45:26 GMT -5
I fully agree Eric, a simple right/ left discussion will fall in a discussion as high as Tai Shan.
The name Fu Hoc might imply that we are dealing with 'two different personalities', but this is a false image. It covers the whole range of Five Elements, seven stars, Eight directions, twelve bridges,.... Thinking in terms as Black/ white, hard- soft, fists- palms is a nice way to start walking the path. But soon you will realize that you miss a lot then. Personally I like to compare it with mathematics, it is a first step.......
Yesterday I was in a church, and for the first time I was listening to the text deeply, while observing the rituals of the priest, the lay out designs of candles, altar, recitings, etceteras. It was an interesting thing to recognize so many things. And believe it or not, I was observing it through Chinese glasses, interpreting it. I had a very strong sensation that are universal concepts, not bounded by a dogma....... (Sorry, this is a whole different discussion).
Pak Mei Pai is mainly a right hand orientated style. All the way up to the more advanced levels. In our basic form of Lau Ga, you will notice too that it is mainly right side orientation. The second form is much more symmetric. There is absolutely a reason for this, not just coincidence. Or what my teacher should have said: There is a method behind the madness.......
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 5, 2004 8:57:17 GMT -5
Good day Suhana,
Like you I have also the Classics on my desk; Sji Tjing and Sjoe Tjing. To understand the depth of it, I have multiple versions of it. Simply because translating this material is impossible. And that’s what we are talking about. It’s the ‘individual’ that use his references. But his references could be heavily restricted by his living, emotional state, or lack of understanding.
My student is a Sinologist, professional translator and well known for the Classics. A few weeks ago we were looking/ talking at Liuhebafa ”Five Character Secrets”. Truly a Classic with wonderful poems/ sayings.
The first poem: Xin Yi Ben Wu Fa’ or “Mind/ Intent is the basis of Methodlessness”. Believe it or not, but we discuss these five character poem for almost an hour. Although the translator is a martial artist himself, and a professional translator, the beauty lies in these characters, the radicals and interpretation.
And I can go on, the restriction lies within ourselves. If we fight, we fight against ourselves. Isn’t everything we learn and study ‘illusion’? isn’t everything we write three dimension, so why using terms of left- right, Yin and yang if we are talking about 3D? Is straight, straight?
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 5, 2004 9:51:05 GMT -5
I The name Fu Hoc might imply that we are dealing with 'two different personalities', but this is a false image. It covers the whole range of Five Elements, seven stars, Eight directions, twelve bridges,.... Thinking in terms as Black/ white, hard- soft, fists- palms is a nice way to start walking the path. But soon you will realize that you miss a lot then. Personally I like to compare it with mathematics, it is a first step....... Evert, Fu-Hoc, being the depiction of 2 personalities is not something new to me. Yes, it is black and white and to go deeper for a fuller understanding you must also comprehend the other aspects that you listed. But the intent is really to demarcate the hard from the soft. The other qualities apply to both hard and soft dimension. To say that a particular technique/principle is only effective in the soft or hard dimension only is to know merely half the story. My question is then this; it this by design of the system originator or is this brought about by different “interpretations” by Masters along the transmission lines? The latter is not something exciting in the context of my research. The former, on the hand, is exploring the “soul” of the system. I have often heard that Pak Kua is the soft version of Lohan and Tai Chi is really Shaolin in “internal:” disguise. And these are given to me by real masters who have given their entire lifetime to the understanding of Chinese Kung Fu. Do they know something I don’t?
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 5, 2004 11:21:21 GMT -5
Many thoughts are terrorizing my poor brains right now, but need to try to structure them.
Tiger - Crane Boxing is done in several choreographies, and changed over the centuries. To be honest, I do not know how it all started. Using only the eight Tiger and eight Crane skills from Hung Hei Kwoen. Wong Fei Hung created nowadays Fu Hoc Seung Ying (1902). In case of Hung Hei Kwoen, I can imagine to emphasize the Hard & Soft modus. Wong Fei Hung created a huge vehicle including the 12 Bridge hands, and the rest I mention, and so make it almost a system on its own.
In that way I do believe that teachers can make the message bigger/ smaller, depending upon experience and knowledge. Didn’t Dong Hai Chuan didn’t do this with Pa Kwa Chang?
Right now I like to make a side step. Eric, did you learn the sounds in your Fu Hoc Saam Tzien? For the Tiger two sounds (cat stances have a different sound then forward stance), and one sound for the Crane picking?
I have seen some beautiful fast style Tai Chi, from both Chen Xiaowang and Leung Shum (Wu style). Beautioful!!
Till now, I classify Lo Han Boxing as mainly hard, solid and deep. But this could be truly my limitation of understanding. I didn't saw that much Lo Han Boxing, and so can not make a clear image.
Take care,
Evert.
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Post by MightBHooked on Nov 5, 2004 11:45:51 GMT -5
Suhana, Evert, and Eric, Thanks for responding. Oops, I thought I was asking a simple question. ;D I thought there might be an important significance to the LEFT, in which, I think there is, I'm just trying to get more answers and deeper meanings. I have to read the replys again.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 18:36:55 GMT -5
Good day Suhana, Like you I have also the Classics on my desk; Sji Tjing and Sjoe Tjing. To understand the depth of it, I have multiple versions of it. Simply because translating this material is impossible. And that’s what we are talking about. It’s the ‘individual’ that use his references. But his references could be heavily restricted by his living, emotional state, or lack of understanding. My student is a Sinologist, professional translator and well known for the Classics. A few weeks ago we were looking/ talking at Liuhebafa ”Five Character Secrets”. Truly a Classic with wonderful poems/ sayings. The first poem: Xin Yi Ben Wu Fa’ or “Mind/ Intent is the basis of Methodlessness”. Believe it or not, but we discuss these five character poem for almost an hour. Although the translator is a martial artist himself, and a professional translator, the beauty lies in these characters, the radicals and interpretation. And I can go on, the restriction lies within ourselves. If we fight, we fight against ourselves. Isn’t everything we learn and study ‘illusion’? isn’t everything we write three dimension, so why using terms of left- right, Yin and yang if we are talking about 3D? Is straight, straight? Evert ni hao The two manuals that you mentioned, I believe they are parts of the five books of Confucius. The SHIH CHING(Sji Tjing) is book of Poetry, the SHU CHING(Sjoe Tjing) is book of History. The other three are: I CHING (Book of Changes), LI CHI (Book of Rites), and CH'UN CH'IU (Spring and Autumn Annals.) The best way is to read in their originals language, because a lot of Chinese characters will slightly or have different meaning at all if translated. This will caused more "interpretation" confusion. Different interpretation is something normal. That's why we say we might have same hair color, but our way of seeing things and thinking are not entirely the same. Among brothers and sisters from the same parent also different in their characters. Moreover people from different culture backgrounds. Not only different interpretation for the Chinese arts. Even the way we "translate" what the holy book says. But this is part of "Nature Way." Something normal and nothing wrong with it. Imagine if we all like red color, if we have the same concept what beauty is, if we like same food, if human being have the same color, same size. If we all practise the same style of martial arts. If all of us are humble, if all of us are boasting. If the rainbow has only one color. How boring this planet can be That's why I've mentioned before, if we want to talk in-depth about this issue, seven days and seven nights won't be enough. Even among the Chinese, to date they still sometimes don't have the same perceptions about the I Ching. And we know that the manual has been around for thousand of years. I am a firm believer that to train in martial arts is (at first) to train the musles. But the end goal of the "journey" is to "find and understand" yourself. This is the most ultimate thing, sorry to say but to overpower other is easy but to battle the "enemy" within you is not an easy task. It's easy if we just read, translate and preach what we get from manuals. But to constantly practise them is most important. As Confucius once said: "To know and be able to apply your knowledge is the greatest achievement." The reason I put Yin and Yang as something you called them "black and white." was because for general information Just to make it easier to digest. Not all of us have same interest, knowledge and understanding. Of course I entirely agree that Yin and Yang is not as simple as black and white, as good or bad, as right and left, etc. That is why if we see the symbol, we should know. The yin yang theory is well illustrated by the traditional Chinese Taoist symbol. The circle representing the whole is divided into yin (black) and yang (white). The small circles opposite shading illustrate that within the yin there is yang and vice versa, the curve dividing them indicates that yin and yang are constantly merging. In the peak of summer (yang), the autumn(yin) is born. In the coldest of winter (yin), the summer (yang) is created. To be able to know good, there must be bad. Without hot, how can we know cold. If there is cruelty, there must be compasion. In order to appreciate beauty, there must be ugliness. We will never know what original is without fake. By knowing what is hard we will realise that there is soft. If all are humble, how can we know what boasting is Cheers.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 18:54:28 GMT -5
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 5, 2004 20:02:00 GMT -5
Many thoughts are terrorizing my poor brains right now, but need to try to structure them. Tiger - Crane Boxing is done in several choreographies, and changed over the centuries. To be honest, I do not know how it all started. Using only the eight Tiger and eight Crane skills from Hung Hei Kwoen. Wong Fei Hung created nowadays Fu Hoc Seung Ying (1902). In case of Hung Hei Kwoen, I can imagine to emphasize the Hard & Soft modus. Wong Fei Hung created a huge vehicle including the 12 Bridge hands, and the rest I mention, and so make it almost a system on its own. In that way I do believe that teachers can make the message bigger/ smaller, depending upon experience and knowledge. Didn’t Dong Hai Chuan didn’t do this with Pa Kwa Chang? Right now I like to make a side step. Eric, did you learn the sounds in your Fu Hoc Saam Tzien? For the Tiger two sounds (cat stances have a different sound then forward stance), and one sound for the Crane picking? I have seen some beautiful fast style Tai Chi, from both Chen Xiaowang and Leung Shum (Wu style). Beautioful!! Till now, I classify Lo Han Boxing as mainly hard, solid and deep. But this could be truly my limitation of understanding. I didn't saw that much Lo Han Boxing, and so can not make a clear image. Take care, Evert. HaHaHaHa Evert, Isn’t this part of our unspoken deal when we first met – terrorize each other before complacency starts to visit? Yes, my friend, everything is up to “interpretations” – there are many ways to the top remember. You asked some questions in the past that I did not answer because to do so is simply to give you my or my Sifu’s interpretation. Looking through my lenses! • Why is my SanJin a “water” element form? You answered that yourself when you said 70% of our bodies is made up of water. To harness that energy then must be the easiest and thus the beginner’s first goal post. You talk about starting with the Tiger because it is your version of Earth. So my brain is thinking, why start with Earth which is, in fact second, on my goal list. Could the answer be that I am an internal stylist and you are the opposite? • Remember I said this once and really got Martin hopping – Train hard to be soft and soft to be hard. Talk to anyone who spent enough time in Shaolin and they will tell you this is true. And if you are fortunate to meet a Tai Chi high hand, you will know I am speaking the TRUTH. The ultimate is really a balance of the Ying and Yang. To do one and not know the other is really only half the picture. Before I punch hard, I must relax enough to let my power come through etc etc…The argument goes on and on. I have seen some very good Kei Shin Kan players do this – totally relaxed and then Wham! They knock people down with their one straight punch. • You are so right in picking Chen Tai Chi to be the platform for this investigation. Remember what Martin said, the further from the source, the harder to see the kinship. I believe Tai Chi started in Chen Village and it is there that we must look first. Look at the old Chen 2nd form – Cannon Fist. Tell me this is not Shaolin! I count so many obvious Lohan techniques in that form that I must believe the Shaolin source theory. • Lohan and Pak Kua is something that I have been hearing plenty especially now in Kuching. I know one Sifu here who is both a Shaolin and Pak Kua expert. He is showing things that I never noticed before. Looking through his lenses perhaps. And I must say with each passing discussion with him, his case gets stronger. Did you know for instance that in the “old” Pak Kua, they do a technique called “Virgin Praying to the Buddha” • Fu-Hoc, my friend, is your area of expertise. But consider this, for the longest time, there is this rumor that Hong Hei Kun learnt Crane boxing from his wife? ? Hong was a Tiger boxer and his wife a Crane boxer Why is this story so familiar? ? Fang Chi Niang was a Crane boxer and her husband supposedly a Tiger boxer – could these 2 stories be linked somewhere? Fukien is not really that far away from Kwantung. Even if we discount this “story”, why the continual man/woman ying/yang summarization of Fu-Hoc? • Looking at the form, I could say there are 3 parts – the tiger, the crane and Lohan. And you are right; there are many variations and emphasis. But I really think the key lies with looking back to understand the original plan. I never really spoke about this before but I did learn Fu-Hoc from a Sifu Leong Wing Fai in Singapore when I was still in school. He taught Fu-Hoc differently. We start with the left hand stretched out in front with the palm opened skyward. The right fist then smashes into the left palm and pulling the both hand to the side we proceed to do the Ming salute. The symbolism of this – the left hand is Ying, the right is Yang. Bringing the Ying and the Yang together give you the tremendous power you need to protect the “Ming”. Sifu Leong was an soldier in Canton and Hung Gar was his weapon of war. • To answer your off-side question; I will provide you with the info but not in this public forum. The major key of “Whopping Crane” is not something I want to be flippant about, my friend. So Larry, starting with the left is to start with the “defensive” first. I am not a Karate player but many of my karate friends like to say “In Karate, there is no first attack” or like we say in White Crane “With 100 attacks, you get 100 failures. With 100 defenses, you get 100 victories”. Sort of saying the same thing?
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 21:24:14 GMT -5
Evert ni hao The two manuals that you mentioned, I believe they are parts of the five books of Confucius. The SHIH CHING(Sji Tjing) is book of Poetry, the SHU CHING(Sjoe Tjing) is book of History. The other three are: I CHING (Book of Changes), LI CHI (Book of Rites), and CH'UN CH'IU (Spring and Autumn Annals.) The best way is to read in their originals language, because a lot of Chinese characters will slightly or have different meaning at all if translated. This will caused more "interpretation" confusion. Different interpretation is something normal. That's why we say we might have same hair color, but our way of seeing things and thinking entirely not the same. Among brothers and sisters from the same parent also different in their characters. Moreover people from different culture backgrounds. Not only different interpretation for the Chinese arts. Even the way we "translate" what the holy book says. But this is part of "Nature Way." Something normal and nothing wrong with it. Imagine if we all like red color, if we have the same concept what beauty is, if we like same food, if human being have the same color, same size. If we all practice the same style of martial arts. If all of us are humble, if all of us are boasting. If the rainbow has only one color. How boring this planet can be That's why I've mentioned before, if we want to talk in-depth about this issue, seven days and seven nights won't enough. Even among the Chinese, until today they still sometimes don't have the same perceptions about the I Ching. And we know that the manual has been around for thousand of years. I am a firm believer that to trained in martial arts is (at first) to train my musles. But the end goal of the "journey" is to "find and understand" yourself. This is the most ultimate thing, sorry to say but to overpowered other is easy but to battle the "enemy" within you is not an easy task. It's easy if we just read, translate and preach what we get from manuals. But to constantly practice them is most important. As Confucius once said: "To know and be able to apply your knowledge is the greatest achievement." The reason I put Yin and Yang as something you called them "black and white." was because for general information Just to make it easier to digest. Not all of us have same interest, knowledge and understanding. Of course I entirely agree that Yin and Yang is not as simple as black and white, as good or bad, as right and left, etc. That is why if we see the symbol, we should know. The yin yang theory is well illustrated by the traditional Chinese Taoist symbol. The circle representing the whole is divided into yin (black) and yang (white). The small circles opposite shading illustrate that within the yin there is yang and vice versa, the curve dividing them indicates that yin and yang are constantly merging. In the peak of summer (yang), the autumn(yin) is born. In the coldest of winter (yin), the summer (yang) is created. To be able to know good, there must be bad. Without hot, how can we know cold. If there is cruelty, there must be compasionate. In order to appreciate beauty, there must be ugliness. We will never know what original is without fake. By knowing what is hard we will realise that there is soft. If all are humble, how can we know what boasting is Cheers. Ooops sorry, technical error here
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Post by diligentmantis on Feb 23, 2005 9:09:30 GMT -5
I just read this Good to see the pomegranate needle spear and the dik jek , Both are used in Iron Ox Mantis , along with peculiar shaped butterfly knives. sean
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