Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
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Bubishi
Dec 28, 2004 21:38:58 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Dec 28, 2004 21:38:58 GMT -5
Hi Evert.,
Thanks for your comments.
Yes I agree the Bubishi suggests a far more indepth art than what I've experienced in karate.
One that is very difficult to discuss as the experience isn't there to provide context.
I would accept the individual putting those notes together had belief in what was written. Belief likely bolstered by his own training.
Which is why I question the means this was transmitted, beyond being a possession, within the Okinawan community.
The most interesting thing is I began from Patrick's translation and compared it with the Alexander and Penland one. Then friends around the world provided copies of others. I have a copy of the original Mabuni book showing some of the Bubishi, as well as Habsetzer's work and the Japanese one you showed, comaring the Bubishi to other Chinese technique.
I'm totally incompetent when it comes to the medical aspects therein, and have a surgeon among my students who'se made it quite clear to me I'm better off not talking about what I really don't know. While he's not a practitioner of TCM, he's not an unbeliever, just wishing for greater 'proof'. He frequently throws martial texts out of my library when he discovers they contain the organs in the wrong location of the body (and pulls a Greys to make the point).
But the issue isn't whether we do or don't believe, the issue is that training shaped the Bubishi's author, and how those theories shaped his art.
Of course the limitations of looking at the Bubishi from the Okinawan perspective, is it is unique, because their arts grew in a non-verbal manner of transmission. Until the modern era, there was not a drive to preserve the art by writing, and until the 1920's no attempt to do so had been done in any detail. Right after that things slowly began to change, but even in the Karate context, the books and articles were and are never more than notes on the arts. The details are much, much more complex.
Pleasantly,
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Bubishi
Dec 29, 2004 3:27:52 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 29, 2004 3:27:52 GMT -5
Dear Victor,
My compliments about your intensive research, and sorry for your disaapointment after research. Still I believe it is worth the time and effort because you are able to point at the weaker and stronger chains. You can only do that from studying such a project. Other can learn from that, on the other side I am sure that you didn't grab little things because they are strongly linked with Southern Chinese Boxing. And believe me, that's a lot. After 31 years I still feel like a beginner and colleagues showed me interpretations I NEVER thought off. That's why I advise you not to give up because there is still a long way to climb.
One such an example was nice - in your writing on your homepage - about dead in 10 days or dead in 100 days. Classical statements that hide two things. 1) 10/ 100 and the meaning dead in some time. Aspects which can't say how long your opponent live after a strike.
I do not know your level of understanding of Dim mak, but like to give you an example. If I am able to damage some of your glands and create a serious injury (somewhere), then you might expect that the healing process will take a long time. Certainly in the past! Or what about a Liver rupture? You know the functioning of these organs and the impact of their functions for proper healing.
Also, do not underestimate the function of Large Intestine 18. In fact it is hard to describe the exact corner/ angle to infiltrate. Especially by a Fukien Boxer. Why? there are special drills to practice the neck region to absorb such a technique. This mean that the penatrtion power should be increased tremendously to stimulate the baro receptors of the carotid artery. I am working as a physiotherapist to at a rehabilitation center and know the amount of plaque in the carotid artery (near the T junction). You can imagien (too) that a punch/ kick can lead to a stroke. I know, this all sounds vague, but I am absolutely sure that there is more then a non medical schooled practitioner can see.
Victor I agree that some descriptions are over exagerated but that could be an oral tradition. If such a book might be older then 300 years, then I can respect that because it should be seen in the light of the 1700 then.
There are still very old books that are given from succesor to successor, or maybe I must say between settled teachers of a lineage. Martin Watts lineage makes this clear, as you can see it on his photo's. I have seen more of it. Master pan is copying it by hand due to the very bad condition of these old family books.
But it does exist, absolutely. But I do not know if the knowledge of the information is update and well enough explained. Still, it is up to the practitioner (IMHO) that he need to do proper research to learn. And that Victor, is what you did. For your students you are able to explain the weak parts and strengthen it with what you know. You did your wore then well, although it all stay 'mysterious'. Again my compliments for your job, and I am sure that you can do something with that research.
Oh yes, the last weeks I did extensive research to the deity as presented in the Bubishi. I thought I had it, and I missed it. Some Chinese cooleagues did helped me. All the way to the level of the Chinese Gods. relations with Hindu Gods, Tibettan Gods. You mentioned it, and we faced it. Bbeautiful lesson, woirth every second because you get a glimpse of the inner world behind the Chinese martial arts, supported with the knowledge of some very keen/ wise practitioners.
Time to treat patients,
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Bubishi
Dec 29, 2004 20:36:42 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Dec 29, 2004 20:36:42 GMT -5
Hi again Evert.,
I agree there must be much I can’t see as I don’t practice the Southern Chinese Arts tradition. But my focus is to try and understand the impact, usage and path the Bubishi made on the Okinawan scene as those arts developed.
I agree a book can’t give the detail behind the notes, nor on the most part can a video tape either. They only present aspects.
In similar light I have one notebook I kept of one of my instructors teachings to my students, he being the late Sherman Harrill. At public clinics he shared about 800 application studies on Isshinryu karate’s eight kata. This was only a portion of his own studies, but from my own notes (and some video record) I was able to capture much of what he shared over his last 7 or so years when he did clinics in our school.
Those notes make a considerable record for myself and my students. For others who did not go through the clinics they are far less meaningful, for the faith, the experience of feeling his strikes, etc. is not transmitted. And without the direct experience they are certainly less meaningful. For example, experiencing his use of Isshinryu’s vertical strike as a standing ridge of knuckles as opposed to striking with the flat fist. Seeing the strike on video doesn’t have the same experience as your students showing you the marks on their body, nor does simply reading the words.
In fact the point wasn’t the 800 studies he shared but the underlying principles behind his work which were the focus. If you begin to understand that, the rest is simply time and effort.
More specifically I’m far from very knowledgeable about Dim Mak and its associated arts. But I understand the points about the size and training of the body involved.
A number of years ago I was trying to show some of Wansu kata’s application potential to one of my students preparing for her black belt examination. I merely touched her neck and side with one series from Wansu and had to catch her as she fell to the floor. But trying to duplicate that on a far larger and stronger student the touch did nothing, and I’m sure I would have had to use considerably more force.
On the other hand the Tomari Rohai kata has a very specific single knuckle strike, where the hand just rolls forward with the strike into the upper chest. The first time I touched a student with that dropping knuckle strike (a former wrestler) with it, I left a mark on their chest for a month from that touch. Armed with that knowledge I don’t experiment what harder strikes will accomplish.
You might find this interesting, one of my students in Chinese and he has a theory that some of Dim Mak’s effectiveness may have been due to the extremely poor diet of the Chinese, leaving them in very poor health. His point is somebody struck with that state may experience a far stronger result than others who were healthier. I would take that as the Carotid Artery plack issue you discuss. Of course how one knows there is a plack build up in the artery is the true art isn’t it.
I am curious though about what manner of strike would you consider more likely to dislodge the plack, some version of a vibrating strike perhaps?
Dr. Harper has worked with me a bit on how the the carotid sinus is the mechanism in neck KO’s proving the blood flow isn’t cut off. He showed me how surgeon’s manipulate it to stop the heart during some surgery, I of course being the subject during those demonstrations, and that shutting the blood flow off will not KO a person as their secondary arteries offer enough blood flow to keep one conscious. But the manipulation of the carotid sinus causes the body to believe the blood pressure is spiking, and the heart shutting down to reduce the blood pressure, creates the lack of blood to the brain.
We learn and study some more,
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Bubishi
Dec 30, 2004 3:23:13 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 30, 2004 3:23:13 GMT -5
Good morning Victor,
You touched the correct string with the material you saved from your late teacher. If you follow this concept/ line, and reflect that to your students, then you build also a kind of Bubishi, specific to your lineage. Maybe covering already 50 years of experience. Respect for ancestors is important in Chinese (family) systems. The martial path you walk is unique because it is about the Self. Absorbing, reflecting, insight. Then it is absolutely worth to share experience with your students or future teachers. In that way you can bring the boxing art to a high level. Every practitioner/ teacher have a special affinity to study a detail. Let them, facilitate them and reflect it on paper/ multimedia form. The Bubishi is such a product of family’s, a tough way because of the analphabetic in China.
What probably happens – if I understand your words correctly – Patrick, Alexander and Robert (Habersetzer) did add there own interpretations in it. In this case they pretend to be part of the lineage? Also, I can imagine that the Bubsihi collectors in Okinawa did add also notes to it. Meaning that the Chinese WuBeiTji version might be (slightly) different then the Okinawan one (?)
For me it doesn’t care because it reflects only a basic roadmap, showing the contains and a little explanation.
Quote: A number of years ago I was trying to show some of Wansu kata’s application potential to one of my students preparing for her black belt examination. I merely touched her neck and side with one series from Wansu and had to catch her as she fell to the floor. But trying to duplicate that on a far larger and stronger student the touch did nothing, and I’m sure I would have had to use considerably more force.
I can imagine the reason for that, but to be honest I will not touch that area. I am medical schooled and my daily work is healing serious injuries. The impact of a blow on the carotid can be very serious. When you are a little bit stressed, then you know the impact on the bloodflow to the head. Plaque is nowadays a common thing, many heavy weights, bad food patterns. Tests have shown that especially the T junction in the carotid is/ will be a disaster in the near future. It is also a fact that many patients already Are heaving one side of the carotid artery closed. A simple test can show this, showing a ‘fall out/ un consciousness’. The baro receptors, which stimulate the nerve stimulation of the heart, can change slightly per location. A tight (stressed) person, a little bit thin, will directly fall down. Not much impact is needed.
On a side track. On the tape way of the Warrior (Shorinji Kempo version), you see a teacher doing some knock outs, also on the carotid artery. This is really crazy! I know there was a fashion wave in the USA of persons beating on this area (Dillman), and love the effect. For me this is crazy and unbelievable.
Quote: Of course how one knows there is a plack build up in the artery is the true art isn’t it.
The current situation is, 'overweight' is becoming a fact, so almost everyone have a degree of plaque in their arteries. Around the heart, lower abdomen, carotid arteries. These spots are rather common and easy to find on the Net. Meaning that the change to create serious damage - that a strike can have on that area - is still increasing per year. I am sure that 300 years ago, this was different in old China. hardly any wealth, no McDonalds, junkfood, eteceteras...
For me it is much more fun to play with nerves, and let the students experience a nice electric shock and a short paralyzing sensation. That’s rather safe and will not give anything leading to a definite ‘stroke’ problem. Because that’s a life penalty. Quote: Dr. Harper has worked with me a bit on how the the carotid sinus is the mechanism in neck KO’s proving the blood flow isn’t cut off.
That mechanism I described above. The baro receptors stop the Ac center to stimulate the heart. The person fall down, no heartbeat. After 45 seconds or so the AC center start shooting new impulses to the heart and the person comes alive. If I translate it correctly in English, the talk about a spontaneous death moment. Slight touch, no beat, and later 45 seconds they can stand up.
Quote: We learn and study some more,.
I agree absolutely. The beautiful questions from your students are things we all should experience. Some of them, although they sounded simple, can have be a treasure to find out.
Thank you Victor and my excuse for the long reply.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Bubishi
Dec 30, 2004 14:27:48 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Dec 30, 2004 14:27:48 GMT -5
Guess it's almost time to wish a Happy New Year Evert, so I do to you and all.
I'd just like to add when I mentioned a light touch that's exactly what it was, just placing the hands over the skin lightly in the kata motion. I agree that striking into the neck (among other areas) is not a healthy thing to attempt, and I've learnt the hard way, even light striking motions carry wieght.
This gets into what I've discovered a common misconception that only heavy power is requird. The Tomari Rohai single knuckle strike I mentioned was also done slow motion, but in the right area with great result.
Other similar techniques are light strikes into the side of the upper leg, almost automatically dropping the opponent.
A result of what I kind of call 'deep' kata study with ones students is you learn you can't go slowly or softly enough. I have many times tried to go slow and soft only to almost take their head off, even in controlled circumsances.
There is a pardigm there, these techniques were designed to succeed when two bodies are clashing towards each other. The way technique becomes a sheering plane of force in closing circumstances hightens that power isn't always required, the act of closing enhances the power, and even soft technique is more than sufficient.
But then the Bubishi addresses that too.
O' yes I'd also like to thank you for the family anology, You've helped me express what I've tried to build with my students over the years, I just never thought of it in those terms.
Pleasantly,
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Bubishi
Dec 30, 2004 16:07:26 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 30, 2004 16:07:26 GMT -5
Victor I wish you a happy new year too,
But first a question:
Quote: Other similar techniques are light strikes into the side of the upper leg, almost automatically dropping the opponent.
Do you know why this happens immediately. I mean do you know the reason - or understand the philosophy - behind such an immediate impact?
(The answer explain much of the philosophy behind vital point striking.)
Enjoy the last hours of 2004,
Evert.
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Bubishi
Dec 30, 2004 18:20:57 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Dec 30, 2004 18:20:57 GMT -5
Hi Evert.,
Quote: Other similar techniques are light strikes into the side of the upper leg, almost automatically dropping the opponent.
Do you know why this happens immediately. I mean do you know the reason - or understand the philosophy - behind such an immediate impact?
I see it as a charly horse, the pain of the strike knotting the leg leading to the collapse. Just a direct cause and effect I guess, one that demonstratebly works every time.
I would be very intersted in your understanding.
Truthfully 'Dim Mak' is very convluted here. It's difficult to experience from books, and from my various instructors it almost all comes from do A and you get B.
My friend Ernest Rothrock's studies in Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai are taught in a very developed manner, but he is so distant I've never been able to get more than a basic grasp of his art. When I began studying Yang TCC with him he was a student of Shum Leung (and still is) and I've seen his art, technique and understanding develop over our decades of friendship, but I do not think he puts it in the way you do.
My studies with Ernest (I was the experimental karate student you share kung fu studies with to keep laughing for the rest of your life.....heh, heh, hen,... who then becomes your friend) were more basic, focused on just the study of forms in various Northern Systems to allow me to be a fairer judge of Chinese stylists at tournaments.
So my knowledge is slight, and his command of the eagle claw movement is far beyond my basic understanding. At times I wonder if the 25 years of work on my tai chi has gotten much better either, but one tries a little.
Pleasantly,
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Bubishi
Dec 31, 2004 3:15:50 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 31, 2004 3:15:50 GMT -5
Quote: I would be very intersted in your understanding.
You will notice on this board that the term Five Elements play an important role, as it does in TCM. Every organ is related to a specific Element, and each Element have its own characteristics. Fire: is related with the Small intestine, Heart,..... Wood is related to Liver and Gallbladder. If you look closer to the Elements – and relate them to nature – you see the impact of power on skill, but also on damaging/ healing. Out of the Five Elements the Wood Element is the quickest because it is related to a phenomena such as wind. Liver Wind & Liver Fire are terms which you read frequently back in TCM books/ notes. But what does it mean? Wind suddenly can show and the power can be devastating as a typhoon. Meaning that stimulating a meridian you can create a very quick response, like an volcano, meaning collapsing. This is of course related to my way of stimulating. Someone with a headache, or a patient that ‘loop’ in his thoughts and beliefs, I softly stimulate Liver Three point (a vital spot according to the Bubishi. This will bring the energy downwards. For the acupuncturist it is always the question the strength of stimulation. It happens several times that it disperse to quickly energy so that the patient will feel dizy, sweating and want to collaps.
Okay, Liver is Yin but gallbladder is yang. Yang means heavy movements meaning that the wind sensation is even more quicker. The point you are describing GB 30/ 31 can have the impact of a typhoon because it is Wood Yang.
My excuse for the technical terms. Again think about Wood/ Wind and think about Yang is outwards and (hyper) activity. Meaning that within a second one can get awfull headaches (Liver Fire) or collaps (Liver Wind) or even have spasms all over the body (Liver wind too.)
Back to the 36 vital spots and try to arrange them. There are 5 Liver/ GB points and around 33% about Ren Mai & Du Mai. That’s a lot!
Everything is relative, so I must convince that these 36 points are not (all being used in our branch. These are the points for this specific teacher/ branch. But it is the philosophy behind the points which give you some insight.
My advanced student just had a Qinna weekend with Yang Jwing Ming, these courses are great and the skill of yang is GREAT. A quality I never ever can give my student, so that’s why he polishes his skills with this teacher. Yang Jwing Ming said that 70% of his skill is Eagle Claw, 25% White Crane and 5 % Tiger Claw. I notice that I doubt, but I think I am rather closed. Practically this mean that – for our Hung Kuen – there were only a few Tiger Qinna skills yang had in his oeuvre. So Victor, you are at the correct place if you want to learn more about Qinna!
Practicing Tai Chi is great, and the change in its presentation is unbelievable. During the seventies/ early eighties I practiced Yang tai Chi too, from the Cheng Man Ching – William Chen and Benjamin Lo branch. Nothing more then the form. For more then six years, which was usual? What, we had long terms students that practiced the soloform (only) for 13 years. Nowadays you will get a whole curriculum in much lesser time, but I am sure that you are aware of this. I can advise you to read Yang Jwing Ming’s books. Suddenly we recognize a very practical art, different then I experienced in the seventies/ eighties.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Bubishi
Dec 31, 2004 7:54:57 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Dec 31, 2004 7:54:57 GMT -5
Evert. Its New Years Eve here,
You've given me a lot to think about.
I have met Dr. Yang. My wife took a 8 month clinic on Tai Chi and Chin Na here in NH 17 years ago with him. I used to hate Dr. Yang, she'd come home from class and have me grab her and I experienced all of his finger locks (and the rest), Believe me I do know what he offers and how well it works.
A context note here, my wife began training about the same time I did, but has kept it a very background part of her life. A friend here in NH (who hosted Dr. Yang's teachings) took us to an open clinic to meet him. My wife was working with my friend and he wasn't getting the wrist lock, when Dr. Yang came up to him and was trying to correct him. He asked my wife to do the lock on him so my friend could watch. Unfortuately my wife understood the lock and applied it correctly and instantly Dr. Yang was on the floor looking up at her. Several months later when the clinics began here she went to the first one and when she enter the school Dr. Yang saw here and immedately began backing up (with a grin on his face). He is a great instrutor and a healthy human being. His work his schools and his students are testimony to that.
After the birth of my son 16 years ago I spent a weekend in his school on at Tai Chi sword clinic. Very interesting material, but my studies were also very intersting material and there is only so much time.
I think I have all his books, but they're hard to read flat. I understood more about what he was sharing with Chi theory listening to him live than reading the books.
From a technical aspect my tai chi studies were not about usage. I was doing isshinryu and just wanted to study tai chi. Ernest was teaching Pai Lum (and studying Ying Jow Pai) and just taught me the form over 2 years in private lessons. I then studied about 20 other forms till he moved to Pittsburgh and I subequently moved to NH, so there is much I never directly got.
But Dr. Yang's works explain tai chi meant much to me. From my Indonesian insturctor I saw how tai chi should work from his Tjimande instruction, and then taking Dr. Yang's work ALL of it worked. For many years I only had my own studies and seeing Ernest maybe once a year. The majority of his work with me was helping me understand correct body alignment in technique execution, an incredibly complex subject in tai chi study.
He also did his best to share the underlying principles of Eagle Claw with my students. In turn this somewhat interrelatates to our Isshinryu and aikido work.
I would catergorize his studies as being greatly non-verbal. The Eagle Claw was taught by technique execution not underlying theory, but as they have great forms, great two person sets (teaching how to set up the lock, the most important part, as well as the lock) and full range sparring practices that don't conclude till a lock is found, their method works. It's just the theory is not there, or rather more correctly, has not been shared with me, and as I'm not exactly in his tradition, I recognize that's ok too.
My own study on Eagle Claw was on the form Hon(g) Kuen.
I will be thinking today on what you've shared.
On a different issue, are Montague's Encyclopedia of Dim Mak very useful in the process?
It's so difficult to recognize what is worth studying when you have to just read paper.
Thanks for sharing,
Victor
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Bubishi
Dec 31, 2004 8:18:00 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 31, 2004 8:18:00 GMT -5
I just read your latest reply, first a reply I just finished for you:
Okay Victor,
Did some read of your written stuff, and I can imagine your strong doubts, especially when translations are different. I will be the last one to try to speak that into a straight line. What I can do, and which is a fact (!), that organs have there time during the day. We all know that the fever rises in the afternoon, let’s say around 17:00. This is due to the Kidneys (water element). We know that the Lungs are active every early in the morning around 05:00, then the large intestine comes. Many people having a stool before going to work. Please I am NOT saying everybody. And there is a hotspot (in time) that heart problems rise to the surface. I think you must try to search in that direction. The relations that Chinese philosophy make, can be very complexed for us westerners while other things – like the rise of afternoon fever – is a common thing, we all are aware off.
Then I found a Herbal formula, page 4 if I remember it well:
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Dragon Time(7-9 a.m.) Medicine 1. Malted nonglutinous rice, 1 scoop 2. Malted rice, 1 scoop 3. Young Prunus persica (L.) Batsch. (Rosaceae) 15.60 grams 4. Eriobotrya japonica Lindl. (Rosaceae) 6.24 grams 5. Carthamus tinctorius L. (Compositae) 6.24 grams Decoct in rice wine, strian, and drink.
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Let’s face some ingredients and there actions:
3. Young Prunus Persica: Young means that it is a very active Yang quality, so powerful. Mandarin name is Tao Ren or peach kernel. This is a Herb that invigorate the blood. Again bitter of nature and enter the Lung channel, and Large Intestine. Breaks up congealed blood, absesses.
Further with Carthamus Tintorii (5), for congealed blood, abdominal pain, clotting, and a scanty flow. Add radix Angelicae Sinensis (Tang Kuei) and radix Paeoniae Rubra (Chi Sao) for pain from trauma.
The ingredients describe here are powerful Die Da (Fall and beat) ingredients.
4. Eriobotrya Japonica: Pi Pa Ye in mandarin or Loquat Leaf in English. It is a bitter and cooling agency. Bitter is a quality that states that it have a strong effect. The leaves should be scrubbed and it works on the Lung and Stomach channels. Lung governs the skin/ surface level of the body, while the Stomach/ spleen is the Internal part. This is a very basic explanation! It treats vomiting. Nausea, hiccups and belching, so against all kind of rebellion Qi.
The wine is a warming agency and open the bloodvessels as well as quicken it. Further the alcohol (high percentage) get the active ingredients out of the herbs and makes it more powerful. That’s why we prefer to work with a Vodka or Black label alcohol (around 40%).
Final note: CONTRAINDICATED DURING PREGNANCY! It will kill the foetus, seen as a stagnation blood clot.
In this way we can analyze every formula. These formulas are being used in practice over the many years, and are helpful. They are not nonsense, but also not magic. Every branch have its own formulas and effective medicine. An art that seems to be dying out in the near future.
Victor, with these kind of information I am not pretending to say it is all correct. No, I like to say that not everything is incorrect. Just a way of looking to the coin, the other way around.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Bubishi
Dec 31, 2004 8:33:11 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 31, 2004 8:33:11 GMT -5
Quote: Montague's Encyclopedia of Dim Mak.
During my last seminar in the USA, a colleague showed me this book. Hard cover, looked very well. Heavy book, models were not that bad, but then the text. My student Justin Ehrlich (an OMD from PCOM, San Diego) and I had a big laugh. Besides a lot of personal interpretations, some descriptions are just very poor. But I must convince that I have read much more from Montague, and seen many performances. Just let's say that I respect him because he practiced the art VERY long, but the way he translate/ transmit information, is absolutely not mine. But this is personal, of what I saw and read, and maybe I am wrong.
Please spent a little bit more money in buying a good book/ map on which you see the organs, nerves, blood vessels. etceteras. In color! better buying a book of $200 that is perfect, then an incorrect one of $100.
I studied TCM for 4 years, very intensive. Chinese professors jumped over the sea. And we did learn a lot by feeling the point and location, in fact an art which should be done. Simply because points differs per person, due to muscle form, a different path of nerves and bloodvessels.
Seminars are okay because you can start feeling the points and founding your way. An idea is to invite an acupuncturist in your class and focus on the 36 mentioned points. Locate them and put it on a clip. Much more sense then buying a simple Acu book.
Finally a nice encyclopedia of anatomy is great, especially for a teacher. Nowadays you have beautiful color ones including scans. Then you have a clear image what a 'floating rib' can penetrate........
Okay, enough. Another 9 hours to go before we enter New year.
warm regards,
Evert.
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Bubishi
Dec 31, 2004 13:52:11 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Dec 31, 2004 13:52:11 GMT -5
May your New Year be filled with Joy Evert.,
I thank you for taking the time to go into such detail. It suggests many fascinating topics of study. I agree this will not be self study from books, the art cannot be explored in that manner.
Truthfully I'm not sure the time I have available leaves me time to look further but we'll see.
My skepticism is based on what I've seen, and of course Dr. Harper pointing out too many of the books I have documenting totally incorrect medical inforamtion which a good anatomy coloring book (which he hates) would show correctly. It tends to make the non- medically trained MA cautious.
Most of my experience on where to strike is based on results I've experienced or have been shown and to the best of my experience were not time related. But then I haven't struck multitues of people to verify those experiences.
My primary teaching time these past 25 years have been volunteer work with the youth of my community, and most of this material is not part of their study. The long term adults with me, well we do what we do and I've raised several instructors who are beginning to carry my path along.
But we all recognize how much there is in the arts, more than we can reach in our short times. I only hope to shave the path for my future generations to allow them to reach further.
So as the year winds down and the new one begins to rise, may we keep our elbows straight during striking, and may our breath and alignment be correct.
Victor
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Post by Nataraya on Jan 1, 2005 6:00:49 GMT -5
All the Best for 2005!
NBack to the Bubishi again..........
Quote: My skepticism is based on what I've seen, and of course Dr. Harper pointing out too many of the books I have documenting totally incorrect medical information which a good anatomy coloring book (which he hates) would show correctly. It tends to make the non- medically trained MA cautious.
This all doesn’t mean that the time of study is thrown away, I think the other side. You were lucky to see both sides of the coin, and (probably) seen the weak chains in the Bubishi are around Okinawan. We can bring many reasons to the surface, but in fact it doesn’t matter. You can motivate it in detail, and so inform your followers. You have your own “Family” Bubsihi as given to you by your late teacher and the 800+ applications. Just imagine how many time you both spent to research this. Together with the knowledge of a medical schooled teacher you could preserve a lot of wisdoem and experience…………
Acupuncture points and time schedule. I do NOTHING with this aspect. No treatments in which I use special points at special times. Also no discussion about a specific vital spot at a vital time. My medical and TCM understandings are to deep to believe in this, but this might be personal.
Quote: So as the year winds down and the new one begins to rise, may we keep our elbows straight during striking, and may our breath and alignment be correct.
Funny, two weeks ago I decided to show Southern Monkey Boxing in front of the camera. In it a “deitong” part or groundfighting/ rolling/ acrobatics. The floor was hard oak, but thought that I could handle it on my spinal column, neck area, etceteras. Proud as I was, walked away after the performance. But the next day……hahahahahaha. Yes, alignment hahahahahaha. There comes a time that you need to focus on other martial aspects, the youngsters in my group likes these things.
Victor, can you tell a little bit more about the technical fighting aspect of the Bubishi? What did surprise me is that it is less then 25% of the notes in Patricks book. In fact you can say that Bubishi (in this case is); 50% introduction and history, 30% medicine and 20% techniques expressed in drawings. I would conclude then that the writer focused mainly on the art of Die Da Ke or Hit medicine, and not technical skill.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Victor
New Member
Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Bubishi
Jan 1, 2005 11:16:50 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Jan 1, 2005 11:16:50 GMT -5
Evert.
I would very much like to have met the person who compiled the Bubishi (assuming for argument it was a description of one persons training, setting aside other possiblities). My few experiences are with those who concentrate on tool builiding, forms, techniques, sparring drills.
The 50% you mention on the history seems a very human concern. Where did we come from, and we ought to preserve it for our art's future. When I was at 25 years into my own studies I realized how many diverse things I had seen and was forgetting, so I took the time to make some notes, around 100 pages or so, just describing what I had experienced. Those who follow me at least have some small record where their art came from. I think this is why the Bub. originator kept this material.
In that light I think the entire Bub. effort is a memory jog, not an instruction manual. You mentioned the art of using those herbs, etc. is much more complex than these notes shared. They make sense from that point to keep somehing like a cook book handy, based on that ages experiences. The prepartion the author was drilled in, in his studies, but one can forget all the ingredients without notes, hence notes!
I don't doubt your own arts are more complex in this regard, as time passes all human endeavor increases in experience.
That his arts were based on how to survive the 36 strikes, makes sense if they were a primary concern of the arts one faces. Who can say if they worked if one doesn't impart those injuries. But they imply a shape of the concern of the adept, and the instruction the adept received.
So the art of striking those points does seem an underlying theory behind their art, even to the point of the time involved. I can understand the theory behind the timing, but it would seem to indicate a world where people did attack with such preparation. Not a self defense art (that would seem to be the medical remedy if one survived the initial attack).
I think looking past the Bubishi into the larger underlying theories is the most important glance to take. Transplant that text to Okinawa, I personally don't see this art was transplanted directly, then the issue is did the posession of the text influence the Okinawan arts indirectly.
Nor do I find it surprising there was less material on the martial application of the originators technique. Technique is learnt on the floor. They knew their craft, and means of working on their technique. They knew how they were trained.
What they kept was not the pictures, but theory to remind oneself of tactical choices one might choose to survive.
Let me grab the closest Bubishi to me, Alexander and Penland's. In chapter 16. number 9 "If you get grabbed from the front, you must hit his shadow (knee to he groin)." Number 9, "If you want to open up his left side, then you must fake an attack to his right side first."
Notes to think on, not so much the technique to use but the theory one may incorporate.
In the 48 self defense techniques what I see presented is more the theory behind the description. Depending on current interpretation the illustration might be the beginning, middle or ending of the sequence in question. Nothing you would hand a person to learn from, but notes that make sense to ones individual training.
Many try to find those technique sequences within the current Okinawan kata. Perhaps the Bubishi did influence the kata originators to include them? Perhaps not? So much is non-documented all that is left is opinion.
As a modern MA, it can be useful to try and search them out, but I think the underlying priciples are the goal, and were they incorporated within the training approaches of the various Okinawan systems?
On the whole the method of transmission of most Okinawan arts to the USA did not get past the basic tool chest for many reasons. Theory of combat here arose in sparring, and only recently, say the past 20 years or so, have new efforts been undertaken into the varied uses of the tools and larger issues.
Most often we concentration the the end results of technique study, and Perhaps are missing the lessons inherent in the Bubishi concepts. Those of recoginzing weaknesses in the opponent, setting them up till the technique application makes sense.
Theories like there are no blocks in karate ignore rational use of blocks to draw one in till the time is right for other answers. Here I'm cheating, for Shum Leung shows us in his eagle claw work how that can function, and the method of 'block' application can be either deflective or 'sucking to draw the opponent in'.
The more I look the more I keep thinking. Habsetzer's work (drawn from his instructors work in the japanese) concentrates on the themes too.
At this point I think this may be the aspect to draw on.
In that sense, the small portion of the Bubishi given to martial technique, is much vaster than it looks on the surface.
But I still would like to meet the individual who's art had such dimension.
Opening thoughts,
Victor
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Bubishi
Jan 1, 2005 11:56:25 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Jan 1, 2005 11:56:25 GMT -5
Dear Victor,
I remember most of your words, starting from a kind of ‘frustrated’ tone, into a detailed sketch. I have the idea that you underestimate your own knowledge. In fact the picture that you draw is rather clear, so why that frustration. If every practitioner would do his study so deep, then much dust can be blown away. Secondly I truly respect the open mind and discussions about this theme. I am sure that several practitioners still look at the Bubishi as a holy bible. You did study, compare and realize. Then there will become a time to put the project aside and continue to grow. Or even better. Reflect the material on paper, and make a better (improved) version for your family (of practitioners). In that case you will transmit the knowledge of your teacher and your self to a next generation. Setting an example what ‘true’ martial arts mean. Not only fighting, but contemplating about the content and taking lessons from that. I think your skill is higher then you might think. You have an opinion based on the study of several projects. But I am sure that much material is waiting to swallow and digest. I hardly can imagine that this is not seen. For myself I wonder if I ever will cover the stuff what I have in mind. Every step I make I enjoy, already for 31 years. Looking forward to make a step into the next 31 years.
The Fukien martial arts path is a recent direction I am walking. Many brothers in this family help me and I can say that I was able to absorb a tremendous amount of data the last year. I saw, observe, felt techniques and discuss it. I only wish that the Wu Lien Tien Ti family stay small and that the ‘bigger’ ego’s stay away.
Currently you and I are heading (again) towards the principles and methods. Understanding this will give an idea about the music you hear, and the choreography of that particular piece. Nowadays this seems to be a very weak aspect in branches and styles.
The same with formulas and recipes. Once you grab the essence of the nature of herbs/ ingredients, you will get much more respect for the product. Then suddenly looking at a formula will tell you in what kind of condition the patient is. Explaining in details his condition and weak spots. This is what we like to do with forms too. Read it and give an ‘in-depth’ analysation of the form. This can only be reached with the tools you did used to explore the Bubishi. I am absolutely sure that the wisdom you received from that, will facilitate your students in doing the same and who knows, will be able to use this in daily life too. Martial arts is all about spiritual development, certainly for me…….
I thank you for the wonderful conversation we had the last week/ days. My excuse to the other readers that it became a discussion of personal content.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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