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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 6:46:06 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 18, 2004 6:46:06 GMT -5
hahahaha, you lousy crazy Dutch man. The day after my birthday and you send this story. Anyway, my blood pressure is perfect - thanks to the cooling qualities of Carlsberg.
Okay back to business.
Quote from the story you sent:- Therefore, the Bubishi would have been brought to Okinawa some six hundred years ago.
If this statement is true, that the recorded "Hakutsuru" cannot be Fang Chi Niang's White Crane!
Fang Chi Niang's White Crane came about 1640 onwards according to many researches done by White Crane Boxing scholars.
My Sifu gave me about the same date.
So Evert, nice try. Better luck next time. ;D ;D ;D
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 7:58:57 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 18, 2004 7:58:57 GMT -5
"Cheung Siu Shu is traditionally believed to be a student of Fang Chi Liang, the founder of the White Crane style. Cheung was reputedly a very strong Kenpo master. He was impressed with Fang's ability and challenged her to a match. As legend has it, Fang Chi Liang's ability at White Crane Fist was so superior that Cheung could not even hit her once. He then became her student and learned the White Crane System"
Okay Evert,
This part of the story rhymes with what I got. “Chen Shi” was allegedly a Shaolin Tiger Boxer. He did challenge Fang and lost. Went on to study with Fang and became her best student. Eventually he married Fang.
We talked about this remember?
And Evert, don’t dismiss this story too quick. If you look at Yong Chun White Crane (before Fang incorporated Chen Chin Nam’s Internal Boxing), you actually do see the Tiger.
Look at Martin’s clips again especially “Ba Fen” or “8 parts” and you will see something that reminds you of “Twin Tigers Pushing Mountain” repeated.
Really White Crane is not as “convoluted” as some folks made it out to be. You do see manifestations of techniques/principles tied in with historical events.
Fang’s father was a “Northern Lohan” Boxer. In most streams of White Crane, you see Lohan techniques interlaced in the forms.
Huang’s Whooping Crane even does a “Lohan” form. My Fuzhou Crane’s Papulien consist many Lohan techniques. Li’s family “Flying Crane” is another stream that comes to mind.
In the 21 forms that the “Feeding Crane” stream does, there are at least 2 that are connected with Lohan. The first is called “Hua Lohan” or “Neutralizing Lohan” and the second is “Lotus form”. Lotus boxing, to many CFK scholars, is an offshoot of Lohan.
I also do a version of San Chin called “Tiger Crane San Chin”. This is done with both fist and open palm with the fist representing the Tiger and the palm symbolizing the Crane.
Where the Tiger did came from?
Evert, I know that there will be some readers who are thinking “I am splitting hair”. Fang could have picked it up somewhere. Kind of like us now learning a few styles for “cross training”.
But all these happened some 400 years ago at a time in China where you guard you kung fu like your life.
You got to – you use it to save lives. Yours and others around you. So no “show me yours and I will show you mine” routine. The only “showing” is in exchanges or duels.
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 8:26:45 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 18, 2004 8:26:45 GMT -5
So is Patrick Mcarthys translation accurate?
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 8:35:27 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 18, 2004 8:35:27 GMT -5
So is Patrick Mcarthys translation accurate? Never read any of his books - cannot say this or that. I read the "Wu Bei Ji" in Mandarin - the old text and an "updated" version from Taiwan. Actually I am more interested to find out; Is "Bubishi" really the Jap version of "Wu Bei Ji" ? Can someone confirm this?
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 8:55:07 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 18, 2004 8:55:07 GMT -5
Well here is what Pat Mcarthys translation says From Shoshin Nagamine hanshi !0th Dan (Recently passed away)
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 9:35:00 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 18, 2004 9:35:00 GMT -5
At home I have five versions of Bubishi. Three from Patrick McCarthy, 1 from Alexander and 1 from Habersetzer. Roughly speaking they all cover most of the chapters of Wu Pei Tze.
Some spend more time on the herbal part, others more on vital points. And finally additions are made, of course towards their own lineage.
We are talking about translations of Chinese philosophy. In my case, I have to live the art, and doing this for 31 years now. I can say that I am going to see the picture, but realize that I have to go another 50 years. H*ll I am young.
Chinese arts (Cheng Wu) are poetic, and need to be read correctly. And certainly ne4ed to be translated correctly. Family members are able to cover the true meaning for - let's say - 75%. That's if they did learn properly over their life time. Then through more dilligent study with - for instance a herbalist, Oriental medical Doctor - one could grab more percentages. Realize, that it is a lifetime study.
meaning, to jump over for a few months, years with some documents doesn't give you the correct image. These words are from me, and I am responsible for that load. I believe that not ONE practitioner can understand a system within 10 years of intensive practice.
Eric said correctly that many sub systems are integarted in any style. To understand its etiquette need more prpoper research and eventually training. In our system that meant that the serious descendents need to study Medicine. Not just a few articles, no a qualified study, with clinical practice. You need to feel, touch, smell and taste. Select the correct herbs and experience many body's and their nature.....
The three man that did translations are all practitiners from the Heart, and took the GREAT opportunity to translate. They did that and I am grateful for that because I could have study the authors their thoughts and understanding of old traditional Boxing. On the other hand I am a freak and see their weak spots too. I can not say it that often correct translations means a lifetime study of an art, then reflect it down and say "these are mine experiences in the light of Bubishi".
My excuses for sounding so arrogant,
Regards,
Evert.
Note: All three Bubishi versions should have a place in any serious library.
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:01:35 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 18, 2004 10:01:35 GMT -5
Well here is what Pat Mcarthys translation says From Shoshin Nagamine hanshi !0th Dan (Recently passed away) Well, like I said:- 1. Is the “Bubishi” really “Wu Bei Ji”? Read someplace that “Bubishi” was destroyed during the 2nd world war. Are we even certain what was in the “Bubishi” brought to Okinawa? 2. In the previous article posted by Evert, the author talked about the “Bubishi” transplanted 600 years ago from China to Okinawa. And it contained literature on “Hakutsuru”. Fang’s White Crane is only about 400 years old so the “Crane” cannot be Fang’s Crane. Shaolin has had “Crane” for at least 1000 years in their system. So could it be “Shaolin Crane” that was talked about in that destroyed text? 3. The Chinese “Wu Bei Ji” is more of a “military text”. Wu = War. Bei = Preparation Ji = Mind / Heart or Will. And yes there are some unarmed fighting techniques found in there. These are, accepted by many CKF scholars, more generic Shaolin fighting techniques. Another argument that I’ve heard is that these techniques must be White Crane because “Tun Tu Fo Chen” is referenced to. This proves nothing actually. TTFC is found in almost all Fukien CKF and even in some Northern Styles Kung Fu like Lohan Men. Then there is one school of thought that says TTFC is synonymous to San Chin. Well, I hate to say this but TTFC can even be found in internal styles martial arts. And they most definitely don’t do San Chin. Just for your info, the most widely used classical text used in the Chinese world of White Crane research is “The 15 postures of Fang Chi Niang Crane Boxing” and not so much the ‘Wu Bei Ji”. And these 15 postures are infallibly “White Crane”. The San Chin stance, the middle gate guard, the whipping palm….. These are the hallmarks of what we know as “Fang Chi Niang BaiHe Quan”.
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:06:07 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 18, 2004 10:06:07 GMT -5
Thats what the text is pointing too, that it is not Hakutru, but Shoalin... I think... you should pick up a copy of Mcarthy's Bubishi it has alot of indo diagrams herd concoctions(sp) and many other things, vital points and techniques
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:27:08 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 18, 2004 10:27:08 GMT -5
Chinese arts (Cheng Wu) are poetic, and need to be read correctly. And certainly ne4ed to be translated correctly. Family members are able to cover the true meaning for - let's say - 75%. That's if they did learn properly over their life time. Then through more dilligent study with - for instance a herbalist, Oriental medical Doctor - one could grab more percentages. Realize, that it is a lifetime study. meaning, to jump over for a few months, years with some documents doesn't give you the correct image. These words are from me, and I am responsible for that load. I believe that not ONE practitioner can understand a system within 10 years of intensive practice. Evert, again I must agree with you. Mandarin is a tough language – trust me. I’ve been struggling with it all my life!!!!!! And I am talking just regular Mandarin. Mandarin in the Kung Fu dimension is positively crazzzzzzy. Friends are always asking; when are you going to finish translating your Fuzhou Crane story from Mandarin to English? Well, if I really want to maintain integrity, it’ll be a while yet. I have in front of me “The Inner workings of Fuzhou Whooping Crane” classical text brought out of China before the communist’s era that is haunting me. Why? They are not in standard Mandarin. They are written phonetically in Fuzhou!!!!!! Exactly like your Cantonese Evert. So I have a triple hurdle to clear. 1. I got to know Whooping Crane principles and concepts. 2. I need to read Mandarin. 3. I need then to understand the Fuzhou in all that Mandarin. Example, the world “zong” in front of “Zong He” makes no sense in standard Mandarin. “Zong” is the Fuzhou pronunciation of “shaking or vibrating ;D ;D ;D
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:30:59 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 18, 2004 10:30:59 GMT -5
Are you going to publish this book you are translating Sifu Eric? I know how you oculd get it privatly published so that only people you want to have it will have it
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:33:49 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 18, 2004 10:33:49 GMT -5
Are you going to publish this book you are translating Sifu Eric? I know how you oculd get it privatly published so that only people you want to have it will have it Well if my wife don't constantly remind me that I got a business to run................ I'll get there somehow - I owe it to my Ancestors and Students. Thanks.
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:34:57 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 18, 2004 10:34:57 GMT -5
Eric, do you have an email address I can contact you at? As I need to ask you some questions. Thanks!
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:35:01 GMT -5
Post by Nataraya on Dec 18, 2004 10:35:01 GMT -5
Dear, I will attach the covers of the three Bubishi books I have: Warm regards, Evert.
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:36:30 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Dec 18, 2004 10:36:30 GMT -5
Use the PM.
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Seeker
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Bubishi
Dec 18, 2004 10:42:13 GMT -5
Post by Seeker on Dec 18, 2004 10:42:13 GMT -5
Dear, I will attach the covers of the three Bubishi books I have: Warm regards, Evert. I have George Alexander, the middle one in my opinion is the best, I take french but mines not good enough to read that lol
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