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Bubishi
Sept 22, 2004 22:00:20 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Sept 22, 2004 22:00:20 GMT -5
Eric,
Have you done any research into the Okinawan Bubishi?
It is obviously derived from a handbook from the Ming He system, as it talks about the founder of Ming He, lists the form of 28 steps, and talks about Sanchin / Ba Bu Lian.
I am curious if you know of a similar book in Ming He that exists into modern times?
Best Regards,
Russ
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Bubishi
Sept 22, 2004 23:50:24 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Sept 22, 2004 23:50:24 GMT -5
Yes, I did look at “Bubishi” albeit superficially.
As I understand it, the English version is translated from “Wu Pei Ji” but is this manual that karate pioneers brought back from China? Isn’t it true that there are conflicting concepts on this matter?
I was reading an e-zine published by the MeiBuKan folks pertaining to the source of Goju in China and obviously they have another take about Goju’s origin altogether. They did a nice job refuting that Xia Zhong Xian was the person responsible for teaching karate pioneers.
Yes, I do have the old texts from MingHe detailing their forms and stuff but there is no mention of any Japanese or Okinawan association.
8/13/18/24/28/36/54/108 and even SanChin has been linked to MingHe at one time or another.
But when you really inspect the forms, you can scarcely perceive any commonalities.
• SanJin – Karate’s SanChin is nowhere near MingHe’s Sanjin. Besides “swallowing,spitting, floating and sinking” MingHe’s SanJin is all about 5 elements hands – something that is glaringly absent in Karate’s SanChin.
• 8 – papulien : I have seen some karate folks do papulien but I was told they learned it very recently from Chinese MingHe teachers. Papuren – the standard Karate’s version is clearly Karate. Papulien in MingHe is considered to be “advanced SanJin”. The keystone MingHe principle of acting/reacting jin in one movement is found in many moves in Papulien.
• MingHe don’t do 13. The only 13 forms are found in Eng Choon White Crane and Fuzhou Ancestral Crane. Eng Choon got their 13 Royal Defenders and Fuzhou got 13 Ways of Breaking.
• 18 – Not MingHe. Fukien Shaolin has got 18 all over the place. We know that Pan YuBa was a Lohan Boxer before studying White Crane. This is reflected in a couple of MingHe forms which are, in reality, Lohan forms. But the number 18 is alien within MingHe.
• 24 – Not MingHe but Fuzhou Ancestral Crane. “Nei Siak Sei Shaan” or 24 evading ways is one of Fuzhou’s form.
• 36 – I read someplace that Fukien Tiger got a form with the number 36- not certain at the moment. It is hard to find Fukien Tiger folks these days – many were “purged” during the Cultural Revolution and most of the latest stuff coming out of China is “NEW”.
• 54 – Strange number to the Chinese if you ask me. Tai Chor does 3 San Chiem forms – Tien/Ti and Ren. This means Heaven/Earth and Man San Chiem. Every form is 18 techniques long. There was a time that these 3 forms were jointly known as 54 ways or “Ngo Chap Si Huat” in Fukien dialect – maybe that the link?
• 108 – There are some Taiwanese researchers who are now talking about an old White Crane text that cites the original 108 techniques taught by Fang Chi Niang and her husband. I think this is an archived Eng Choon manuscript. The number 108 don’t appear in any Fuzhou cranes as far as I know. Again 108 is everywhere in Fukien Shaolin. The most complex Lohan form is “108 Lohan Fists”. This is the signature form of Ven. Sek Koh Chum – a fighting monk from Fukien who left China and settled in Singapore.
Ven. Sek only taught a handful of his disciples this form. He did, however, leave behind pix of the entire form before passing on.
I have these with me and I got to tell you – mystifying postures. The facial expressions make me think of what Nataraya (a member of this forum and a good friend) have been trying to tell me all along. Swallowiing and spitting coupled with EMOTIONS set off unbelievable power – kind of like his Steel Wire Form.
Sorry, to add in the last bit – I thought it makes this topic less “dry”.
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Bubishi
Sept 23, 2004 1:36:20 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Sept 23, 2004 1:36:20 GMT -5
More info on Lohan 108 Fists :- note : Shi Cao Can is Hanyu Pinyin for Sek Koh Chum. Luohan Quan Luohan Quan: Xi Nu Luohan Quan; Angry Happy Luohan Boxing. Shi De Qian from Henan Shaolin Temple in China, wrote the history of Shaolin and included Xi Nu Luohan Quan; Angry Happy Luohan Boxing, in the (Shaolinsi wushu baike quanshu) Complete Encyclopedia of Shaolin Temple Martial Arts, volume I & II. Only 18 of the 108 postures were documented in the book. Scattered around this page and the page are many pictures in, for some people, unusual and strange postures. This is Xi Nu Luohan Quan; Angry Happy Luohan Boxing. It is one of the highest levels of art it includes attributes of emotions and sounds (thus the facial expressions). This art was said to be practiced by only 4 of the original 18 disciples (of the Shuanglin Temple Singapore), it is said that common students such as those in Indonesia or Malaysia did not learn it. At the moment only 4 people know the entire 108 techniques/postures of the Xi Nu Luohan. In fact most students/disciples did not learn the entire Luohan tradition because Shi Gao Can taught different skills to different students. That is why over 30 schools of the Shi Gao Can tradition appeared in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia over the years. Besides the Xi Nu Luohan, there is another Luohan Quan. And this is much more common amongst the different decedents of Shi Gao Can. It can be compared with Yi Zhi Mei in the sense that most schools practice is, but everyone has his own interpretation of the movements and order. Still it can easily and immediately be recognized as Luohan Quan of Shi Gao Can.
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Bubishi
Sept 23, 2004 3:03:51 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Sept 23, 2004 3:03:51 GMT -5
Russ ,
Sorry, I left out:-
• 28 or Nipapo – Yes MingHe has got a form called Nei Saik Paik or 28 steps in Fuzhou dialect. You have that version in your website. I have another 28 steps called “Nei Saik Paik Shood” or Resting Crane 28 Steps. Almost comparable except for emphasis in certain techniques. Now if you were to look at karate’s Nipapo and MingHe’s 28, can you say there are the same?
Russ, I have MingHe’s Patpulien in printed form with Chinese explanation. If you like a copy just send me your mail address.
Unfortunately, I am only “authorized” to send out Patpulien at this time.
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Bubishi
Sept 23, 2004 6:43:30 GMT -5
Post by Suhana LIM on Sept 23, 2004 6:43:30 GMT -5
More info on Lohan 108 Fists :- note : Shi Cao Can is Hanyu Pinyin for Sek Koh Chum. Luohan Quan Luohan Quan: Xi Nu Luohan Quan; Angry Happy Luohan Boxing. Shi De Qian from Henan Shaolin Temple in China, wrote the history of Shaolin and included Xi Nu Luohan Quan; Angry Happy Luohan Boxing, in the (Shaolinsi wushu baike quanshu) Complete Encyclopedia of Shaolin Temple Martial Arts, volume I & II. Only 18 of the 108 postures were documented in the book. Scattered around this page and the page are many pictures in, for some people, unusual and strange postures. This is Xi Nu Luohan Quan; Angry Happy Luohan Boxing. It is one of the highest levels of art it includes attributes of emotions and sounds (thus the facial expressions). This art was said to be practiced by only 4 of the original 18 disciples (of the Shuanglin Temple Singapore), it is said that common students such as those in Indonesia or Malaysia did not learn it. At the moment only 4 people know the entire 108 techniques/postures of the Xi Nu Luohan. In fact most students/disciples did not learn the entire Luohan tradition because Shi Gao Can taught different skills to different students. That is why over 30 schools of the Shi Gao Can tradition appeared in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia over the years. Besides the Xi Nu Luohan, there is another Luohan Quan. And this is much more common amongst the different decedents of Shi Gao Can. It can be compared with Yi Zhi Mei in the sense that most schools practice is, but everyone has his own interpretation of the movements and order. Still it can easily and immediately be recognized as Luohan Quan of Shi Gao Can. Eric ni hao Pardon me for "interupting". I understand that some sifu will only pass on his arts to a student that he thinks "suit" the form/style. Usually based on the posture and characters of the student. Cheers.
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Bubishi
Sept 23, 2004 8:04:15 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Sept 23, 2004 8:04:15 GMT -5
Eric, There are certainly conflicting concepts on all of these theories about the relationships between Okinawa and China and the effect the relationship had on the development of Okinawan indigenous martial arts. I am not one of the people trying to make the case that Goju-Ryu is a direct descendent of any particular Chinese style, be it Ming He or other, and I have always been very skeptical that Higashionna's teacher was Xie Zhong Xian. What I will say, however, is that it is undeniable that much cultural exchange occurred between Fuzhou and Naha, and that the Okinawans historically have always held Chinese culture in very high regard. To this day, you can find the Fukushu-en garden in Kume village as a testament to Fuzhou being a "sister" city of Naha. It is also undeniable that two former residents of Fuzhou moved to Naha for the purposes of tea trading, and while present on Okinawa, shared their martial arts with one of the Kenkyukai (study groups) of which Miyagi, Mabuni, Kyoda, and others were members. These Fuzhou natives were Tang Daiji and Gokenki; Tang Daiji is believed to either have been a Huquan boxer or Wuzuquan boxer, and Gokenki was almost certainly a Minghequan boxer. I will only say that in the case of Goju-Ryu, the formulation of the style was affected by all of the following: Higashionna's training in Okinawa Higashionna's extended stay in China Miyagi's training under Higashionna Miyagi's several trips to China Miyagi's interaction with Tang Daiji and Gokenki In Goju-Ryu there are no forms (named by the numbers or not) that closely match forms of any Chinese style I have found (and I have looked ). If you look closely at Goju-Ryu (which few people do), you can certainly tell that is was BASED on the training paradigms of a Fuzhou martial art. In the case of Shi-to-ryu and To'on-ryu, both Mabuni and Kyoda included the 28 steps form they learned from Gokenki into their curriculum. Certain they do not look identical to any of the Chinese versions of the form I have seen, however, they are certainly FROM the Minghequan 28 steps / strikes form. As for Ba Bu Lian, I have yet to get verifiable (IMO) information that this form was transmitted in Okinawa during Gokenki's time, and not at a later date. The Okinawan "Bubishi", IMO, appears to be a book describing Minghequan, and was certainly owned by Miyagi Chojun who passed it on to some of his students (and friends). There are many theories as to how it came into his hands, but it is likely we'll never know the truth. I find researching martial arts in general to be fascinating; each system's founder is unique and imparts a piece of their personality in the structure of the training. Eric, and others, thanks for sharing! Best Regards, Russ Yes, I did look at “Bubishi” albeit superficially. As I understand it, the English version is translated from “Wu Pei Ji” but is this manual that karate pioneers brought back from China? Isn’t it true that there are conflicting concepts on this matter? I was reading an e-zine published by the MeiBuKan folks pertaining to the source of Goju in China and obviously they have another take about Goju’s origin altogether. They did a nice job refuting that Xia Zhong Xian was the person responsible for teaching karate pioneers. Yes, I do have the old texts from MingHe detailing their forms and stuff but there is no mention of any Japanese or Okinawan association. 8/13/18/24/28/36/54/108 and even SanChin has been linked to MingHe at one time or another. But when you really inspect the forms, you can scarcely perceive any commonalities. • SanJin – Karate’s SanChin is nowhere near MingHe’s Sanjin. Besides “swallowing,spitting, floating and sinking” MingHe’s SanJin is all about 5 elements hands – something that is glaringly absent in Karate’s SanChin. • 8 – papulien : I have seen some karate folks do papulien but I was told they learned it very recently from Chinese MingHe teachers. Papuren – the standard Karate’s version is clearly Karate. Papulien in MingHe is considered to be “advanced SanJin”. The keystone MingHe principle of acting/reacting jin in one movement is found in many moves in Papulien. • MingHe don’t do 13. The only 13 forms are found in Eng Choon White Crane and Fuzhou Ancestral Crane. Eng Choon got their 13 Royal Defenders and Fuzhou got 13 Ways of Breaking. • 18 – Not MingHe. Fukien Shaolin has got 18 all over the place. We know that Pan YuBa was a Lohan Boxer before studying White Crane. This is reflected in a couple of MingHe forms which are, in reality, Lohan forms. But the number 18 is alien within MingHe. • 24 – Not MingHe but Fuzhou Ancestral Crane. “Nei Siak Sei Shaan” or 24 evading ways is one of Fuzhou’s form. • 36 – I read someplace that Fukien Tiger got a form with the number 36- not certain at the moment. It is hard to find Fukien Tiger folks these days – many were “purged” during the Cultural Revolution and most of the latest stuff coming out of China is “NEW”. • 54 – Strange number to the Chinese if you ask me. Tai Chor does 3 San Chiem forms – Tien/Ti and Ren. This means Heaven/Earth and Man San Chiem. Every form is 18 techniques long. There was a time that these 3 forms were jointly known as 54 ways or “Ngo Chap Si Huat” in Fukien dialect – maybe that the link? • 108 – There are some Taiwanese researchers who are now talking about an old White Crane text that cites the original 108 techniques taught by Fang Chi Niang and her husband. I think this is an archived Eng Choon manuscript. The number 108 don’t appear in any Fuzhou cranes as far as I know. Again 108 is everywhere in Fukien Shaolin. The most complex Lohan form is “108 Lohan Fists”. This is the signature form of Ven. Sek Koh Chum – a fighting monk from Fukien who left China and settled in Singapore. Ven. Sek only taught a handful of his disciples this form. He did, however, leave behind pix of the entire form before passing on. I have these with me and I got to tell you – mystifying postures. The facial expressions make me think of what Nataraya (a member of this forum and a good friend) have been trying to tell me all along. Swallowiing and spitting coupled with EMOTIONS set off unbelievable power – kind of like his Steel Wire Form. Sorry, to add in the last bit – I thought it makes this topic less “dry”.
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Bubishi
Sept 23, 2004 8:22:01 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Sept 23, 2004 8:22:01 GMT -5
Eric, If you look closely at Goju-Ryu (which few people do), you can certainly tell that is was BASED on the training paradigms of a Fuzhou martial art. Hi Russ, Thank you for your reply - your knowledge of Karate's history is humbling! Could you kindly expand on what you said on paradigms of a Fuzhou martial art ? Some specifics maybe ? Once again - love crossing swords with you. Xie Xie.
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Bubishi
Sept 23, 2004 8:53:17 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Sept 23, 2004 8:53:17 GMT -5
Eric, Here is a quick bullet-list of some of the similarities I have found. Please be kind as I am obviously only an outside observer of Fuzhou martial systems. -Warmups, Stretching & Chi kung (Junbi Undo) -Iron Body (Sanching & Kotekitae) -Strengthening with Implements (Hojo Undo) -Sanchin Principles of movement and structure (including Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float) -Advanced Kata (often following numerical paradigm) -Push Hands / Sticky Hands (Kakie, etc.) -Two-man forms (added by Toguchi Seikichi and Yagi Meitoku) -Emphasis on Chin-na (Bunkai) -Weapons forms (Missing, but many Goju practitioners adopted the Matayoshi or Taira Kobudo method to fill in this gap) If you have questions, please feel free to ask them. Best Regards, Russ Hi Russ, Thank you for your reply - your knowledge of Karate's history is humbling! Could you kindly expand on what you said on paradigms of a Fuzhou martial art ? Some specifics maybe ? Once again - love crossing swords with you. Xie Xie.
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Bubishi
Sept 23, 2004 10:26:44 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Sept 23, 2004 10:26:44 GMT -5
Hi Russ,
Thank you for the info.
You listed:-
-Warmups, Stretching & Chi kung (Junbi Undo) -Iron Body (Sanching & Kotekitae) -Strengthening with Implements (Hojo Undo) -Sanchin Principles of movement and structure (including Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float) -Advanced Kata (often following numerical paradigm) -Push Hands / Sticky Hands (Kakie, etc.) -Two-man forms (added by Toguchi Seikichi and Yagi Meitoku) -Emphasis on Chin-na (Bunkai) -Weapons forms (Missing, but many Goju practitioners adopted the Matayoshi or Taira Kobudo method to fill in this gap)
In Fuzhou Crane, the routine is roughly:-
• Warm up – very specific warm up techniques mimicking crane movements like “wings flapping” etc. These techniques are largely to relax joints and tendons – very essential for the kind of Fa-jin that we do. An observer once remarked that we look like we are “shaking” – very true. The ‘dog shaking” jin is our aim. • Forms – Every body do SanJin regardless of grades. 5 elements hand training is a compulsion. After which, different level students would break up into smaller groups to do their own forms. • 2 men drills – we have a very complex system of 2 men drills. Depending on levels, drills are added to enhance the mastering of forms. Sort of like bunkai of the forms. The drills are designed with the bunkai in mind. • Fighting principles drills – this is something that is “exclusive” in my system. We have 12 different principles of fighting and every principle comes with its own individual drill. Going off-line to your opponent’s blind spot, both front and back, is the entry principles. First we do the stepping and then stepping and hitting at the same time.
We don’t really do iron shirt training per se in Fuzhou Crane. Unlike the other system that I do, Tai Chor, where SanChin’s iron shirt training is the main element.
Chin-na comes under one of our fighting principles and in White Crane we do a lot of “pinching” of soft points. So our Chin-na methodology is somewhat unlike the 72 chin-na methods used in other kung fu systems.
We also do a lot of “bridge breaking” – all along meridians channel/dim mak points on the arms and legs. So our “push-hand” looks more like “breaking hands”. Some older folks call them “thunder hands”. Again this is in accordance with another of our fighting principles – “When hand meets hand, you got nowhere to go”.
I know it is not easy to visualize what I have written. This is why I am planning on shooting some of these training.
I will let you know when they are ready.
So I was right - you are the wise "Karateman" that I've been waiting for. My late teacher warned me about you - hahaha.
"When you are fated to meet - 10,000 miles cannot stop this"............. very old Chinese saying, Grasshopper!
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Bubishi
Sept 23, 2004 13:34:07 GMT -5
Post by CStephens on Sept 23, 2004 13:34:07 GMT -5
Gosh. I have an excellent teacher, no injuries, relaxed schedule, and a message board with some exceptionally knowledgeable and friendly martial artists.
Life is hard. ;D
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Bubishi
Sept 24, 2004 8:31:24 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Sept 24, 2004 8:31:24 GMT -5
Eric, Thanks for the breakdown. I look forward to seeing and hearing more about your training methods. Actually in the karate circles, I'm one of those guys who should be reading / researching less and training more. ;-) Best Regards, Russ Hi Russ, Thank you for the info. You listed:- -Warmups, Stretching & Chi kung (Junbi Undo) -Iron Body (Sanching & Kotekitae) -Strengthening with Implements (Hojo Undo) -Sanchin Principles of movement and structure (including Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float) -Advanced Kata (often following numerical paradigm) -Push Hands / Sticky Hands (Kakie, etc.) -Two-man forms (added by Toguchi Seikichi and Yagi Meitoku) -Emphasis on Chin-na (Bunkai) -Weapons forms (Missing, but many Goju practitioners adopted the Matayoshi or Taira Kobudo method to fill in this gap) In Fuzhou Crane, the routine is roughly:- • Warm up – very specific warm up techniques mimicking crane movements like “wings flapping” etc. These techniques are largely to relax joints and tendons – very essential for the kind of Fa-jin that we do. An observer once remarked that we look like we are “shaking” – very true. The ‘dog shaking” jin is our aim. • Forms – Every body do SanJin regardless of grades. 5 elements hand training is a compulsion. After which, different level students would break up into smaller groups to do their own forms. • 2 men drills – we have a very complex system of 2 men drills. Depending on levels, drills are added to enhance the mastering of forms. Sort of like bunkai of the forms. The drills are designed with the bunkai in mind. • Fighting principles drills – this is something that is “exclusive” in my system. We have 12 different principles of fighting and every principle comes with its own individual drill. Going off-line to your opponent’s blind spot, both front and back, is the entry principles. First we do the stepping and then stepping and hitting at the same time. We don’t really do iron shirt training per se in Fuzhou Crane. Unlike the other system that I do, Tai Chor, where SanChin’s iron shirt training is the main element. Chin-na comes under one of our fighting principles and in White Crane we do a lot of “pinching” of soft points. So our Chin-na methodology is somewhat unlike the 72 chin-na methods used in other kung fu systems. We also do a lot of “bridge breaking” – all along meridians channel/dim mak points on the arms and legs. So our “push-hand” looks more like “breaking hands”. Some older folks call them “thunder hands”. Again this is in accordance with another of our fighting principles – “When hand meets hand, you got nowhere to go”. I know it is not easy to visualize what I have written. This is why I am planning on shooting some of these training. I will let you know when they are ready. So I was right - you are the wise "Karateman" that I've been waiting for. My late teacher warned me about you - hahaha. "When you are fated to meet - 10,000 miles cannot stop this"............. very old Chinese saying, Grasshopper!
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Bubishi
Sept 28, 2004 9:07:30 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Sept 28, 2004 9:07:30 GMT -5
Hi Russ,
Sorry for the slow response.
Okay, Wu Xian Kui, don't register under Xie Zhong Xian's line.
What more can you tell us about him?
You sound pretty certain when you said :-
"Certain they do not look identical to any of the Chinese versions of the form I have seen, however, they are certainly FROM the Minghequan 28 steps / strikes form."
Why ?
Xie Xie
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Bubishi
Sept 28, 2004 10:08:32 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Sept 28, 2004 10:08:32 GMT -5
Hi Russ, A pix of Fuzhou Crane's 2 men drill. Technique taken from "Hua Paik" or "Tackling 8" toulu. Name of technique : White Crane Playing Water. Thanks.
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Bubishi
Sept 30, 2004 0:20:46 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Sept 30, 2004 0:20:46 GMT -5
Hi Russ,
Thanks a million – I owe you.
Give me a bit of time and I will send you the major Minghe forms, some of my Ancestral crane and the White Crane flavor Wing Chun.
You will get 3 versions of Patpulien – 2 Minghe’s and one Ancestral Crane’s. Then I think we are even this round.
Okay, managed to download all except P McCarthy – keep getting server reset.
Will take a while to assimilate but very quickly, some cursory impressions.
But before that please take note of the filter lenses that I apply.
• Hard but not rigid, Soft but not weak. • All movements must flow fluently.
Here goes:-
1. Minghe – the Chinese Sifu: - good whipping jin all round. The fluttering, is superior, reminds me of my old teachers. The only thing that I find disagreeable is the WuShu quality. There are a couple of postures apparently added for the cameras. But this is to be expected – if I look at traditional kung fu from mainland in the last 10 years. I see this sort of embellishments all the times. I have got a kung fu documentary from the mainland with a kid doing a crane form – almost exact same texture with good shaking and exaggerated postures etc.
2. Nipai - Yek. This gentleman must be a early days Huang’s student. I saw Huang doing his White Crane (this was in the mid 80s), his MingHe was very “soft” – like my Si-Hing in the video I sent you. According to many masters here, this was Huang’s personalized Minghe with Cheng Man Ching Tai Chi’s jin methodology integrated.
3. Nipapo – Soken. The performance looks weak. It this the intent or is it just the performer? Poor crane characteristics if you ask me.
4. Nipapo – Gokenki. So this is the much talked about kata. My impression is - very Lohan. Pan YuBa was a Lohan cum White Crane boxer. Xie Zhong Xian, in some quarters, is credited to be the real founder of MingHe after blending Pan’s Lohan and White Crane. So could Gokenki be a direct student of Pan making him a peer of Xia and not a student? What about chronology – is this possible?
5. Nipapo – Toka. A karate player doing Hua Paik? This is my Hua Paik form except that the rendition is a wee bit hard for me. This cannot be a historical transplant – all the Chinese traits are still intact.
6. Nipapo – Shi to. I think I know this guy – from Singapore right? A “Karate” form but I do sense some crane techniques. Went through quite a bit of face lift it must have.
Russ, once again, thanks for the materials. Now when I talk to you at least I am on the same wavelength. I must stress that the above is very a skin-deep assessment - I will spend more time to go through them in details.
And if for any reasons, you don’t want to discuss this in a public area – I am okay. We can go someplace else.
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Bubishi
Oct 1, 2004 11:22:33 GMT -5
Post by Gojumaster on Oct 1, 2004 11:22:33 GMT -5
Eric, I'm glad you liked the videos. I hope that you can help shed some light onto "Gokenki". I'll try and gather some more information on Gokenki soon and send you what I can. I have quite a few videos of "eight linked steps", and a few more of "28", that we can look at later, including more video from the Huang line, and some of Ruan Dong, too. I also have some really bad "karadeee" renditions of these forms, but they're only good for entertainment value, IMO. Got to go get ready for my trip to Okinawa... Later, Russ Hi Russ, Thanks a million – I owe you. Give me a bit of time and I will send you the major Minghe forms, some of my Ancestral crane and the White Crane flavor Wing Chun. You will get 3 versions of Patpulien – 2 Minghe’s and one Ancestral Crane’s. Then I think we are even this round. Okay, managed to download all except P McCarthy – keep getting server reset. Will take a while to assimilate but very quickly, some cursory impressions. But before that please take note of the filter lenses that I apply. • Hard but not rigid, Soft but not weak. • All movements must flow fluently. Here goes:- 1. Minghe – the Chinese Sifu: - good whipping jin all round. The fluttering, is superior, reminds me of my old teachers. The only thing that I find disagreeable is the WuShu quality. There are a couple of postures apparently added for the cameras. But this is to be expected – if I look at traditional kung fu from mainland in the last 10 years. I see this sort of embellishments all the times. I have got a kung fu documentary from the mainland with a kid doing a crane form – almost exact same texture with good shaking and exaggerated postures etc. 2. Nipai - Yek. This gentleman must be a early days Huang’s student. I saw Huang doing his White Crane (this was in the mid 80s), his MingHe was very “soft” – like my Si-Hing in the video I sent you. According to many masters here, this was Huang’s personalized Minghe with Cheng Man Ching Tai Chi’s jin methodology integrated. 3. Nipapo – Soken. The performance looks weak. It this the intent or is it just the performer? Poor crane characteristics if you ask me. 4. Nipapo – Gokenki. So this is the much talked about kata. My impression is - very Lohan. Pan YuBa was a Lohan cum White Crane boxer. Xie Zhong Xian, in some quarters, is credited to be the real founder of MingHe after blending Pan’s Lohan and White Crane. So could Gokenki be a direct student of Pan making him a peer of Xia and not a student? What about chronology – is this possible? 5. Nipapo – Toka. A karate player doing Hua Paik? This is my Hua Paik form except that the rendition is a wee bit hard for me. This cannot be a historical transplant – all the Chinese traits are still intact. 6. Nipapo – Shi to. I think I know this guy – from Singapore right? A “Karate” form but I do sense some crane techniques. Went through quite a bit of face lift it must have. Russ, once again, thanks for the materials. Now when I talk to you at least I am on the same wavelength. I must stress that the above is very a skin-deep assessment - I will spend more time to go through them in details. And if for any reasons, you don’t want to discuss this in a public area – I am okay. We can go someplace else.
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