Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Jan 8, 2005 23:27:26 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
Thanks, I look forward to your posts. Unfortunately my scanner no longer works since I had XP installed and will have to try and have my son's pc hooked up to it, if I ever get it going, perhaps I can add some furhter material.
Victor
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Post by essence on Jan 9, 2005 3:28:32 GMT -5
Good day people.
I have always thought that Eagle Claw was done with the thumb and the index and middle finger, but the pictures say otherwise. However, Victor's explanation of the grip being applied through the thumb and middle finger does throw up some very interesting questions for me.
Why just the thumb and middle finger? What about the index or the rest of the fingers? Is this done in order to provide more accurate targeting of acupoints?
Also, as pointed out, the difference between Northern and Southern is that the Southern Claw is executed with fingers spread and the Northern is executed with fingers together. What would this account for in application? As Victor said, it would be a strengthening exercise while doing forms, and sitting here forming both claws, I feel it is harder to do it with the fingers closed. However, would this have any combat merit over the use of open fingers?
Just some questions I have regarding this very intriguing style. Thank you all for the information you have shared and please, do not take offense if I may have said something wrong, I apologise in advance.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
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Post by Victor on Jan 9, 2005 9:43:32 GMT -5
Tze Hou,
All four fingers of the Eagle Claw grasp the arm,neck or whatever, but being on the receiving end what I experienced was the middle finger/thumb such that it felt like needles in those locations. The time Ernest did grab me and the video was rolling all four finger marks made it look like a claw mark on my arm, hence the claw is even more fitting than just the fist formation.
On seeking those points, the method of claw entry is often the back of the open hand parries, the hand then rolls over and slides down into the claw formation and the lock.
In fact I think part of the Northern hand formation is to provide side stabilization pressure to inrease the power on the index finger in the lock, but the entire hand formation helps move into the right locations. I think the scan's of Ernest show some of this, such as the way he grabs the hand before he turns it over in the locking position.
Their use of the points is a training, through the 2 person sets, till they know when they've 'gotten' their opponent.
Now I'm only putting my words around the experience, and do not have enough riding time to be truly knowledgable, but as I've seen some of the pieces, experienced some of the basics and see where it looks like its going, that is what I see is behind it.
Frankly any systems locks done correctly work quite well. I'm not sure there's much of a difference between the Northern and Southern ones being shown, or if its there I can't ascertain it from the photo's. But in the Ying Jow Pai, the systematic method of instruction appeals to my inner balance.
It wasn't in the cards I could spend the time, beyond my first two years studying Hun Kuen, but I still find the system interesting.
Victor
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Jan 9, 2005 9:46:41 GMT -5
Just as a point of interest, if you look at Ernest's (or Sifu Rothrock for the traditionally focused) photographs, you'll note the leg placement in the locking process.
The lock is a full body technique, not just the hand. What I've seen of the Eagle Claw principles, those lower body checks are important to sell the movments more correctly.
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Post by essence on Jan 10, 2005 3:25:15 GMT -5
Good day Victor.
Ah I see what you mean now. The intense pain is concentrated between the thumb and middle finger? Could this be where the acupoint of the technique is found, and as such, cause needle like pain?
Upon reviewing the pictures again, I do find that the position of the feet do play an important part in the Kum La techniques, giving the practitioner an added leverage of sorts to ensure minimal chances for a counter-attack.
What still perplexes me though is why the difference between an open fingered claw and a close fingered one? Is there a hidden purpose? Easier to hit the acupoints perhaps, or maybe it is to ensure a stronger grip?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Nataraya on Jan 10, 2005 8:28:48 GMT -5
The picture shown in this letter is from the Tsui family. They practice Shantung Eagle Claw Boxing. Victor, when spring is coming then I have a nice exercise for you, killing the old wood........ Warm regrads, Evert.
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Jan 10, 2005 20:16:53 GMT -5
Hi Tze Hou,
Why the Northern Eagle Claw is done with the fingers together I can't definitively.
My opinion would be that it was on increase the strength of the claw. My friend tells me the locks in Ying Jow Pai are teh same as the ones in Northern Mantis, but he felt the Eagle Claw's were stronger than the Mantis Claws.
I would also feel the way he is using the middle finger, the fingers together are helping support it more strongly.
But I can only offer opinion.
Evert, interesting those pictures, I have a whole ton of growing shrubs, trees, etc. to practice on <GRIN>. I'm going to make sure my wife doesn't see this and give her ideas for me to clear the property with.
But natural training tools do make sense. Long ago I had the fortune to attend a Bando summer camp and they used to work trees with their stick training, using them for hand strengthing via impact, and as their use of their punch followed the stroke of their hand with a stick, the one reinforced the other.
Thanks,
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 11, 2005 6:39:00 GMT -5
Okay some more Ying Chow / Chin Na related stuff. #1 - Article from an old mag talking about Ying Chow in New York. #2 - These are actually from a Chin Na source. #3 - Lung Ying's Chin Na.
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Jan 14, 2005 14:11:38 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
Thanks for digging those photos out.
I'm pretty sure the first two photo's are of Shum Sifu from NYC. Though a much younger man than in his books.
Victor
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Post by Firehawk on Jan 19, 2005 5:35:24 GMT -5
The Hakka Unicorn style from Kwangtung that i have on video tape uses chi na and the eagles claw i am wondering if the hakka unicorn style might be a form of hakka southern eagle claw because in Hawaii they just call the unicorn style unicorn style because they dont know what the real name of the system is .
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Post by Nataraya on Jan 30, 2005 6:20:50 GMT -5
Look at the beautiful Yum -Yeung balance between victum and opponent. The relaxation of the teacher and the BEAUTIFUL expression of his student/ Love this photo! Warm regards, Evert. Source: IKF Febr. 1982 page 57.
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Post by feihung on Jan 31, 2005 0:13:27 GMT -5
hey, is there a such thing as a southern eagle claw? if so, what is the difference between that and what shum sifu's style of ying jow
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Post by diligentmantis on Feb 1, 2005 14:08:10 GMT -5
Hi . Southern Eagle , + Wu szao jin yin= 5 golden eagle claw. This Style is from Fukien province. it is still practiced in Taiwan. The current Sifu's are Cheng chia miao and Cheng Chia Min. i have the artical in a Magazine , along with some photos.
if you Bare with me i'll try to scan it or take Digital photos but not to well up on this, more of a Bones and Abacas man.. Any Help ??/ Dm
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 11, 2005 9:24:27 GMT -5
Hi Victor, Good to be talking to you again. Now that I've got a scanner, it's easier for me to post some more Ying Chow pics. Regards. Eric
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Victor
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Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
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Post by Victor on Mar 19, 2005 20:03:44 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
Once again thanks for sharing this.
I've been traveling for business the last few weeks and have had difficulty logging in.
Victor Smith bushi no te isshinryu
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