Ying Chow - Eagle CLaw

[Eric Ling]

Hi Victor,

By "Lin Kuen" are you refering to "Continuous Fists" ?

I got some materials on Southern Eagle Claw that I will be posting later.

It is starting to rain like crazzzzzzzzy again and I better be checking on all my plants in the nursery.

Jeeeze and at quarter to midnight too........

[Victor]

Eric,

Shum Leung translates Lin Kue as "Connecting Fist" in his book 'The Secrets of Eagle Claw Kung Fu'. Perhaps that means the same as 'Connecting fists'. I've never seen the complete form, or a great deal of my instructors studies. Lin Kuen is one of the 3 major sets of Nothern Eagle Claw, but the sections I have seen when he's shared how Eagle Claw is constructed to my students, get rather busy.

The set I learned was 10 rows long, Hun Kuen or 'walking fist'. It containes all of the Eagle Claw techniques, but not every variation on them. One of my instructors students even found me a Chinese book on the form in San Franciso, but I can only translate the 'pictures'. It's not an exact copy of what I studied, but quite close.

This makes me wish I was back a decade ago before bad arthritis set in and could run the lower stances and have such fun. I still run a few pieces from time to time.

Our rain is over here, now its just cloudy, but more rain and snow will be coming in here later this week. Sunday morning tai chi was nice, I didn't have to wear too much to practice outside. But this month's coming snow and ice have one benefit, it makes some of the turns more interesting.

Victor

[Eric Ling]

Hi Victor,

The Southern Eagle Claw I spoke about earlier...

[Victor]

Hi Eric,

These techniques look very similar to the Northern Eagle Claw two person drills. Likely nothing new under the sun.

Of course it is difficult to determine from a few photographs, but I see smilarity with the little I understand.

Do you know what the history of the Southern Eagle Claw is?

Thanks,

[Eric Ling]

Hi Victor,

You are right - nothing new really except maybe in delivery. Still looking for the mag with the history descriptions etc..

Got a old picture here of a West Malaysian Ying Chow Sifu doing "Xin Quan".

Thanks.

[Victor]

Eric,

That sure looks like the hanging claw I was taught.

The techniques you pictured are essentially in Shum's book. The first one was Lock 3 of the 108 locking techinques. The second one I recognize from my study of Hun Kuen.

I can't really comment on the method of delivery from a static series of photo's, but there is a great deal of similarity.

I apprecate seeing this. I'm going to try and see if Ernie has the time to check this site out. His own studies and teaching consume most of his free time, but I will try. He's been to Hong Kong several times, the first with Shum to meet his teacher's teacher, the last last year I think to visit his teacher's teacher' son.

I really applaud what everyone's doing with this discussion group. Truly fascinating for an older karate instructor.

Victor

[Nataraya]

Victor,

On different forums I did reply on such threads because we have one set in our curriculum known as Golden Eagle. This style/ set I have found in Taiwan too, but in a way it is tough to get more information from it.

Golden eagle is a Southern system, probably related to Hakka Boxing. The most essential difference is that our claw is three fingers, in 90% of all cases. Also there are low sweeps and some deitong (low sweeps). The form is rather short (around 64 postures) and as always I recognize LoHan postures in it as well.

Technically I would label this is as novice/ intermediate and the Kum La/ Qinna skills are absolutely not that advanced as in Northern Ying Yow. The skill is more Sat/ Sha, meaning to kill. It is not about 'controling' but more about 'rupturing'. That's why I think too that the source must be Hakka.

Like you, I hope that Eric take some time to explain history a little bit more.

A colleague of my did study Shantung Eagle from the Tsui family. To be more exact from Tsui Po. In the seventies they did an article about this family in SKF. If you are interested I can extract some information from that article.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Nataraya]

Evert

[Nataraya]

ERic, belkow you will find the list what Victor did mean about the Lien Kuen. This following list contains the Chinese names of all fifty rows of Lien Kuen containing all of the 108 techniques of Ngok Fei in the thirteenth century:

1. Art Da
2. Tiu Da
3. Bung Da
4. Chan Tiu
5. Choy Me Sam Choy
6. Fan Da
7. Sut Yiu Jeung
8. Bye Bo Da
9. Jin Wan Jeung
10. Chin Jong Doon Da
11. Go Tiu Dai Art
12. Sun Sau Kuen
13. Toy Bo Doon Da
14. Cow Jong
15. Fong Jow
16. Lot Kuen
17. Sun Fung So Yip
18. Diu Sau Liu Yum
19. Doon Da
20. Cow Da
21. Diu Sau Sim Bo Jeung
22. Lo Won
23. Fing Kuen
24. Jow Fat Jim Kuen
25. Diu Sau Fann Kuen
26. Wu Jong Chop Jeung
27. Mat Mai
28. Po Yut
29. Noi Bin Jong
30. Jun Choy
31. Seung Chin Sau
32. He Chin Sau
33. Seung Quan Sau
34. Na Quan Sau
35. Tiu Da
36. Gop Da
37. Bot Fann Sic
38. Qua Da
39. Lo Da
40. Ying Jow Lek Jow
41. Hong Bo Tiu Da
42. Sim Jing
43. Tip Sun Cow Da
44. Sut Sun Fa
45. Sim Yun Won Jong
46. Yip Loi Chong Fa
47. Chop Non Bo
48. He Chop Bo
49. Kit Bo Seung Fa
50. Chin Hau Toy

Warm regards,

Evert

[Victor]

Evert.,

Thank you very much for those pictures.

While hardly more than an eagle claw dillitante and certainly never capable of the very wide ranging gymnastics behind the advanced eagle claw movements the more Ernie did the basic Eagle Claw priniciples I came to see how those movements may be part of the way to escape the same locking techniques.

My time the last decade or so with Ernie has been more focused on my tai chi work, and only very periphially his eagle claw studies.

But the Eagle Claw principles (again in Shum's book) a series of 7 two person sets (each about 3 or 4 attacks and counters long) is showing more than just the lock. The structure is attack then lock, then attack then lock. But the second attack I see is more than just a practice attack, it also looks very much like the way to counter that first lock (and then so on).

In such light I see the extreme range of movement likely a locking counterl answer.

Course this is just my own interpretation.

BTW, that grab to the collar bone is a really painful one, especially when you're instructor really has the grip down.

Gosh this makes me really wish I was much younger and had a chance to get back into this again.

Victor

[Eric Ling]

More Southern Eagle....

[Victor]

Hi Eric,

Those Southern Eagle Claw scans show one of the major differences between Northern and Southern Eagle Claw, the claw formation.

If you look above at the Lau Fat Mun Eagle Claw formation you can see the four fingers are together in claw formation, where the Southern Eagle Claw has the fingers spread.

I was taught the tight formation of the claw was a hand strength building exercise, and each time it was formed in the forms was to increase the claw power.

About the time my instructor switched his schools over to Eagle Claw was the same time he began showing me is use (abet only the beginner levels appropriate for my training). Now if I grab your wrist or arm with the claw if I'm lucky you will feel a strong controlling grab.

But when he grabbed me it was an esquisite level of pain. The actual lock was between the thumb and the middle finger, it felt like two needles piercing my arm. I'm sure he does some subsidiary training, but the main training vehicle besides the lengthy forms, is the two person sets.

They don't study meridians, instead those sets work an understanding how to get to the points, and working with different people develops the feel where adjustment is required to make them work. [This is my personal analysis of the little I've seen.]

But where my claw is just a grab, his claw is pure pain. The last time he was up here and running a few basic drills for my students he grabbed me once with one lock, and when he let go, my arm literally had claw marks on the inside of the biceps. I stuck my arm in front of the videocamera to remember how much they looked like I was literally clawed.

Perhaps I'm just too feeble and aging. But it was a very intersting experience to feel the level of his skill (and he's always had great skill and power in everything I've seen him do).

Now those southern claws look like almost the same finger bend as the northern claws. Has anyone experienced what their locks feel like? I'm curious how their application works in comparison.

A small further point for the neck claw, as I execute it you actually strike into the larnyx with the area between the thumb and index finger, and as the hand starts to withdraw the claw is formed grasping the neck behind each carotid artery. I see it as trying to grab the neck on the way in could cause them to bounce away, but striking into the larnyx, makes them loose their breath, and the claw folding as the fingers reach the neck lock, is effective.

I don't believe there is a short way to develop the claw to those levels, just a lot of work for a very long time.

With thanks for everyone's sharing.

O a few years ago I did an article on www.fightingarts.com about Eagle Claw with Ernie doing many of the pictures. The article is at www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=131

I'm not sure how to add a scan from the article here, I'd be glad to do so if anyone wants.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Victor,

I am importing the pictures you mentioned to this site - hope this is okay. ;D

[Victor]

Thanks Eric,

Hope you find them useful by way of further comparison.

Victor

[Eric Ling]

Victor said:

Thanks Eric,

Hope you find them useful by way of further comparison.

Victor

Hi Victor,

Will try to post more Ying Chow from old books and mags.

Actually, I am more keen in exploring "72 Chin Na" which IMHO is probably the oldest organized "gripping/grappling" knowledge in CKF.

Thanks.