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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 9:53:21 GMT -5
I was looking for comments about the “crane” aspect of this technique.
The defender is using an outside crane head block and then turning this into a heart-piercing palm heel.
The follow-up reverse punch is arbitrary.
My question:-
• Where is this technique taken from, which kata ?
How many other ways is the crane head used?
Is this part of the “Hakutsuru” that I have been hearing about?
From the crane head to the palm, how is the power execution supposed to be?
Is this a push type delivery or a snap type palm heel ?
Thanks Mike....
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CEB
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Post by CEB on Feb 16, 2005 10:20:35 GMT -5
I was looking for comments about the "crane" aspect of this technique. The defender is using an outside crane head block and then turning this into a heart-piercing palm heel. The follow-up reverse punch is arbitrary. My question:- Where is this technique taken from, which kata ? Tensho, Rokkishu or the Uechi Fish Tail exercise. All should provide adequate text for the technique. How many other ways is the crane head used? Four primary ways I can think of including this one off the top of my head. From the crane head to the palm, how is the power execution supposed to be? Is this a push type delivery or a snap type palm heel ? It can be both. It can depend on the level of the practitioner. This may sound like a cop out but here it is true. Power in delivery should be snap and a lot of the energy comes from the wrist but sometimes novices get to loosey goosey when they start breaking the wrist and their elbows start to drift in a bad way so I have them break the wrist first in their forms then it becomes a type of push. Sometimes a very fast push in execution but still a push type move. Eventually it should be a snap type move. We also use the form as an internal breathing kata. The elbows are a big concern because this is directly tied to the way the body behaves. If the body and is no good then the rest is moot IMO. When novices start thinking about their hands they forget about their bodies. Chinen Sensei even tells people that there is no bunkai in Tensho because he wants people to think about their bodies and their breathing. I hope this helps, remember I am really a Judo player. PS FWIW we do have a push type palm strike in the syllabus but it is not this one.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 10:34:03 GMT -5
Tensho, Rokkishu or the Uechi Fish Tail exercise. All should provide adequate text for the technique. Four primary ways I can think of including this one off the top of my head. It can be both. It can depend on the level of the practitioner. This may sound like a cop out but here it is true. Power in delivery should be snap and a lot of the energy comes from the wrist but sometimes novices get to loosey goosey when they start breaking the wrist and their elbows start to drift in a bad way so I have them break the wrist first in their forms then it becomes a type of push. Sometimes a very fast push in execution but still a push type move. Eventually it should be a snap type move. We also use the form as an internal breathing kata. The elbows are a big concern because this is directly tied to the way the body behaves. If the body and is no good then the rest is moot IMO. When novices start thinking about their hands they forget about their bodies. Chinen Sensei even tells people that there is no bunkai in Tensho because he wants people to think about their bodies and their breathing. I hope this helps, remember I am really a Judo player. PS FWIW we do have a push type palm strike in the syllabus but it is not this one. Thanks Ed. Just curious; have you seen my style (Whooping Crane) San jin? I have the same exact technique in that form. You can download this form from Russ' site. Trying to pick out Karate techniques that I could relate to White Crane. Thanks old Judo player.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 10:48:38 GMT -5
Sorry Ed,
Another question; snap power that you talked about.
Can I imagine this to be like trying to break a floating board sort of energy?
When you snap, it is all elbow and wrist action?
Something else (actually the most important) - do you have any kind of snap - hit you opponent and using the "bouncing" off to re-strike the opponent in your Goju experience?
Humor me, all these is leading to somewhere...........
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CEB
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Post by CEB on Feb 16, 2005 11:17:17 GMT -5
Sorry Ed, Another question; snap power that you talked about. Can I imagine this to be like trying to break a floating board sort of energy? Yes. When you snap, it is all elbow and wrist action? Mostly I would say. Depends on what the other hand is doing I think. I am a bad guy to ask because I don’t think much about what I do. I just do it and not all that well either. Often the other hand maintaining contact with your opponent “bridged” while the snappy free hand does its thing. If there is no contact with your opponent and you have the distant a good long fist can hurt real good and we train that kind of power also. I always though Wing Chun guys specialized in this short snappy power more than we do. They hit more, we hit harder. Something else (actually the most important) - do you have any kind of snap - hit you opponent and using the "bouncing" off to re-strike the opponent in your Goju experience? Humor me, all these is leading to somewhere........... Yes we do this. But IMO I don’t think we do this to the extent of real southern fist people. There are a few techniques in the style that are triple or quadruple hit bouncing type techniques. Like the elbow/forearm strike followed by an uppercut, followed by a backfist across the bridge of the nose bouncing off into a hammer strike to the testicles. What I am curious about is how Chinese view would classify these following Goju Ryu forms: 1) Seisan 2) Sanseiru 3) Suparunpei What Okinawian researches seem to be concluding from eyewitness accounts of direct students of Higaoshionna other than the Goju guys was that Higoshionna only taught 4 or 5 forms. The 4 core forms seems to be Sanchin plus the 3 I mentioned above. The only crane head technique in the current versions of those forms are the ending postures of Sanseiru and Suparunpei done out of Shiko Dachi stance. One of the centerpiece techniques is Tora Guchi. I wonder how crane like the tora guchi technique is. I wonder if maybe the tiger is a bigger animal influence than the crane sometime. Probably not.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 12:43:39 GMT -5
Yes. Mostly I would say. Depends on what the other hand is doing I think. I am a bad guy to ask because I don’t think much about what I do. I just do it and not all that well either. Often the other hand maintaining contact with your opponent “bridged” while the snappy free hand does its thing. If there is no contact with your opponent and you have the distant a good long fist can hurt real good and we train that kind of power also. I always though Wing Chun guys specialized in this short snappy power more than we do. They hit more, we hit harder. Yes we do this. But IMO I don’t think we do this to the extent of real southern fist people. There are a few techniques in the style that are triple or quadruple hit bouncing type techniques. Like the elbow/forearm strike followed by an uppercut, followed by a backfist across the bridge of the nose bouncing off into a hammer strike to the testicles. What I am curious about is how Chinese view would classify these following Goju Ryu forms: 1) Seisan 2) Sanseiru 3) Suparunpei What Okinawian researches seem to be concluding from eyewitness accounts of direct students of Higaoshionna other than the Goju guys was that Higoshionna only taught 4 or 5 forms. The 4 core forms seems to be Sanchin plus the 3 I mentioned above. The only crane head technique in the current versions of those forms are the ending postures of Sanseiru and Suparunpei done out of Shiko Dachi stance. One of the centerpiece techniques is Tora Guchi. I wonder how crane like the tora guchi technique is. I wonder if maybe the tiger is a bigger animal influence than the crane sometime. Probably not. It's 2 in the morning here in Kuching and I just want to say. personally, out of the 4 named, Sanchin and 108 appear to be most "White Crane". But then again, of all the Karate that I have seen, Uechi and Goju strike me as most "Kung Fu" like. And I am looking beyond techniques/postures into breathing and more importantly, power generation. A punch is a punch is a punch. Unless of course, if you looking at a Wing Chun. Pak Mei, White Crane or Tai Chi player punches. Then a punch takes on identifying percularities imho. Tomorrow. Thanks Ed.
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 8, 2005 19:13:40 GMT -5
Got a CKF technique here from Ba Ji Quan. Karate folks do this same technique right ? Which kata - 36 or 18 ?
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Post by okinawagojuryu on Mar 8, 2005 20:48:39 GMT -5
It is performed in Seiunchin kata .
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 8, 2005 21:01:28 GMT -5
Got a CKF technique here from Ba Ji Quan. Karate folks do this same technique right ? Which kata - 36 or 18 ? 18 (Seipai) as well as Seienchin/Seiyunchin. Rob
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 8, 2005 21:11:08 GMT -5
18 (Seipai) as well as Seienchin/Seiyunchin. Rob Hahaha, so I was right - done in 18. Seienchin or in Chinese; "four directions battle" - just wondering; could this have anything to do with "Si Mun" or "4 doors" fighting concept found in many Fukien CKF. What the karate's story with "4 directions battle"? Domo arigato...
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CEB
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Post by CEB on Mar 8, 2005 21:30:41 GMT -5
Hahaha, so I was right - done in 18. Seienchin or in Chinese; "four directions battle" - just wondering; could this have anything to do with "Si Mun" or "4 doors" fighting concept found in many Fukien CKF. What the karate's story with "4 directions battle"? Domo arigato... For what it is worth we refer to kata Shisochin as our four directions battle. I always assumed that is because the embussen or stepping pattern is to four directions shaped like a cross. I've heard Seiunchin (aka Seiyunchin, Seienchin etc....) read a couple of different ways but the four thing is a new one I have not heard. Have a good week.
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Post by CStephens on Mar 8, 2005 21:56:28 GMT -5
18 (Seipai) as well as Seienchin/Seiyunchin. Seiunchin (Isshinryu). I tend to use it as bringing someone over my shoulder and scooping them up into a fireman's carry/throw (kinda like the "dump" in Wansu) or as an attack into the elbow, triceps, or armpit.
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 8, 2005 23:18:03 GMT -5
Seienchin or in Chinese; "four directions battle" - just wondering; could this have anything to do with "Si Mun" or "4 doors" fighting concept found in many Fukien CKF. What the karate's story with "4 directions battle"? Domo arigato... We don't have "four directions battle" really. The closest thing is perhaps Shisochin, as Ed mentioned. However, you be the judge, Eric. here's various kanji renderings for the names of the kata. Shi To Ryu Seienchin Goju Ryu SeiyunchinShi To Ryu ShisochinShi To Ryu (Itosu Kai) Shisochin seems that Sakagami uses a different kanji than his teacher, Kenwa Mabuni. Goju Ryu ShisochinRob
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CEB
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Post by CEB on Mar 8, 2005 23:34:44 GMT -5
I have my big 3 ring binder notebook here and it says ShiSochin translate battle in four directions or fighting to four directions. FWIW. That is close enough for me.
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 9, 2005 3:18:53 GMT -5
Goju Ryu ShisochinOnly this means "4 Directions Battle". The rest need some figuring out from the Kanji point of view - could be just phonetic, not sure. Isn't there another theory that says Shisochin refers to "Mantis/Cricket Fighting". Interesting to me because as a Fuzhou, "Shisochin" could just mean "Mantis/Cricket Fighting". Thanks.
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