|
Post by revolusean on Jan 31, 2005 0:24:20 GMT -5
Hi All - I am a student of Gung Fu, so forgive me for sounding a bit like a rube.. I was wondering though if anyone knew whether or not there were open handed techniques in any form of Karate - e.g., GF uses tiger claws and Buddah Palms, butterfly palms, etc - Just wondering if anyone with some knowledge can shed some light on this subject for me
|
|
|
Post by feihung on Jan 31, 2005 6:08:31 GMT -5
in some styles of karate(if not all) they use other hand forms. unlike gung fu, karate does not specialize in any one open hand. e.g. tiger claw may be used in a kata. but not to say that theres a tiger claw karate. I think that Uechi ryu is a blend of tiger dragon and crane. gojy ryu uses mantis(to a degree)
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Jan 31, 2005 12:21:54 GMT -5
Hi feihung,
Are you by any remote chance a "Hung Gar" player? ;D ;D ;D
Interesting that you should say Goju includes Mantis Hand.
Want to elaborate here for us?
Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Jan 31, 2005 12:34:04 GMT -5
I got a very well-written karate book based on the Shotokan style that describes all the various hand techniques found in Karate.
Don’t have the book with me but I remember the author is a high-ranking student of the late Nakayama-Sensei.
Almost all “Kung Fu hands” can be seen in Karate. Even the 1 finger strike that is commonly associated with nerve points striking.
Bear palm, Crane wing hand, tiger claw, leopard choy and others……..
The thing to note here is that the executions indicate more Southern Kung Fu sources.
Correct me if I am wrong but you really do not see “Northern” style long range techniques in most Karates.
And the fact that you see so many genres of technique is also pointing to more than one source of CKF derived from.
Or Shaolin, which is kind of like a composite style.
|
|
|
Post by revolusean on Jan 31, 2005 15:21:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the info feihung and Eric - I am by no means a Karate scholar, but I am familiar with a few of the legends concerning its origins - I dont know how accurate it is, but I have heard that Chinese masters used to seek refuge in Okinawa during the occupation - In one of the stories I had read, it was conveyed that Karate (being empty hand) was called Chinese Hand long before the inception of other Japanese 'empty hand' methods - According to this legend, Okinawans were not permitted to carry weapons and stylized their own fighting methods after the empty hand methods of the Chinese - That is partially where my question came from - I dont know how accurate any of those stories are concerning the origins of Kartae, but I figured that if it was sui lum derived, then there would be instances of animal imitation (like tiger clawing or mantis hand as was previously noted) - glad you guys could answer this for me
|
|
Victor
New Member
Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
|
Post by Victor on Jan 31, 2005 22:03:57 GMT -5
Hi Eric,
Yes much of Karate's hand techniques can be found in the Chinese systems (no suprise that). But not in the manner in which I've experienced the Northern system hands.
On the surface karate just looks like a striking (fist) art, but there are many open hand strikes, finger strikes (like those in Unsu), strikes that look significantly like tiger claw strikes (as in Wandan), elbow/forearm strikes, single knuckle strikes, etc. There are techniques that look identical to baguazhang single palm change, or techniques that could be straight out of eagle claw (here a choice similar to the Northern systems).
And just because a form/kata specializes in some obvious techniques, there is no reason every of of the techniques should not be mastered and used with equal choice.
At the same time, most schools I've experienced tend to focus on the fist techniques for use.
Does this help the question?
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Jan 31, 2005 23:00:10 GMT -5
Hi Eric, Yes much of Karate's hand techniques can be found in the Chinese systems (no suprise that). But not in the manner in which I've experienced the Northern system hands. On the surface karate just looks like a striking (fist) art, but there are many open hand strikes, finger strikes (like those in Unsu), strikes that look significantly like tiger claw strikes (as in Wandan), elbow/forearm strikes, single knuckle strikes, etc. There are techniques that look identical to baguazhang single palm change, or techniques that could be straight out of eagle claw (here a choice similar to the Northern systems). And just because a form/kata specializes in some obvious techniques, there is no reason every of of the techniques should not be mastered and used with equal choice. At the same time, most schools I've experienced tend to focus on the fist techniques for use. Does this help the question? Hi Victor, Agreed. Just because certain techniques are more obvious is no reason to neglect others. But having said that, CKF in many cases, are defined by obvious differences. Take Pak Kua for instance; almost exclusively palm works. I guess even by simply examining how the system is named is indicative of content. Karate is “Chinese” or “Empty” hands. Not specific Chinese or empty hands. If I tell you I am White Crane, certain thought patterns come to mind instantly. Well like I said, I still think Shaolin was the prime source of influence as far as Okinawan and Japanese martial arts are concerned. For it is really in Shaolin that you would find a such wide spectrum of hand and leg techniques used. And if you believe in the 36th Chambers of Shaolin………………….
|
|
Victor
New Member
Isshinryu Yang Tai Chi Chaun
Posts: 41
|
Post by Victor on Feb 1, 2005 5:55:30 GMT -5
Actually Eric,
I believe in the 37th chamber of Shaolin....... <GRIN>
I can't claim what I explore is the way others in karate do it, but at more advanced levels of training, say after 10 or more years, I more consiously explore other paradigm potentil in our kata..
I believe in change and different looks.
Take one of our basic forms, Isshinryu's Seisan, which is a variation on the Okinawan Seisan theme across all the groups.
We'll explore it totally with empty hand, different breathing sets, different movement dynamics and different technique definitions where techniques stop and start. A simple example of the latter would be to always complete a technique by taking the next step in the kata, so the purpose of a technique is to set someone up for a takedown.
I belive we have a personal need to become unpredictable, even with a very defined set of training.
Another example we explore opposites, Uecihi sanchin as opposed to Isshirnyu's Goju inspired sanchin kata, finding the common ground.
I can find many Chinese potential within the OKinawan kata, Tai Chi's in Chinto kata, much of the Aikido curricula in Chinto Kata, the essence of Eagle Claw and Bagua in Seisan, etc.
The extensive technique application studies I took with Sherman Harrill show us how the application is decoupled from the kata and in turn how the technique or fractals fo the technique, any technique, can be applied against almost any attack.
Not better than perhaps the way the Chinese arts I'm somewhat familiar with approach things, but a different way of finding the same material.
So if Karate has the palm change in it, at some layers we may just explore the palm change and its layers of use.
I can only call it as we try to explore it, which may or may not be what others call karate.
Hope this makes some sense,
Victor
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Feb 1, 2005 8:38:16 GMT -5
Hahaha Victor, Very succinct post indeed! I am not a Karate player but throughout my Kung Fu student’s day, I was surrounded by many outstanding Karate-kas. Like you Sir, they looked beyond the apparent or that which is generally passed around as usual karate concepts. Could be because they are Chinese (be kind, only a personal opinion), they tend to look at Karate through Chinese lenses. And like we discussed before, if one don’t just try to force fit everything into the “White Crane/Hakutsuru” mould, the picture becomes very exciting. I am totally not surprised that you see Pak Kau, Eagle Claw and other CKF in your Karate. Talked to a Japanese friend one time and he argued that Karate is composition of Kung Fu quintessence. Right or wrong? Debatable imho. What I do like is this statement issued by a Karate great ; train hard to enter the door of Shaolin. 37th chamber of Shaolin; you are either watching the wrong movies or reading poorly done kung fu comics………<br> Thank you Sir.
|
|
|
Post by CStephens on Feb 1, 2005 23:24:44 GMT -5
37th chamber of Shaolin; you are either watching the wrong movies or reading poorly done kung fu comics. Poorly done? They were the best comics ever. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Feb 1, 2005 23:49:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by olddragon on Feb 15, 2005 2:27:32 GMT -5
Correct me if I am wrong but you really do not see “Northern” style long range techniques in most Karates. Eric: I may be way off base here but I have always felt that the longer a karate person trains the more he learns to "close the gap" or to fight in close. This may be partial reason for not seeing the "long range techniques" ..... In the beginning students will tend to fight long range and it has always seemed to me that this is a stage you have to let them go through until a bit of confidence and experience has been gained. If we watch all of the old okinawa masters and their offspring it appears that it is all about inclose fighting. I have noticed that Japanese styles appear to be a little distance oriented, at least more than the okinawan. I am guessing here but perhaps height and size played a part in this. Okinawan's tend to be short, (I can relate to that) and I have often wondered if this was the reason. Understand that these are my observations over 24 years and I dont mean to "slot" the japanese styles as I have not been exposed to all of them, having said that there are some styles on Okinawa that I am only slightly aware of. My experiences are based on watching Okinawa masters, their students and of course their students here in North America. I will tell you this, I'm only 5'8", and in my professional life have had opportunity to use my art a few times over the years. I learned a long time ago that my arms were shorter than most so I have to move inside the range to be effective. Mike O'Leary
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Feb 15, 2005 3:03:40 GMT -5
Ah Mike,
That is exactly my point.
Most Northern Stylists I know train long and fight long.
There was a Northern Sifu in the 70s in Singapore from the "Liu He Wei Tuo Men", a rarely heard Northern Style, who fought in the "hit and run" manner.
Most 7 Stars Praying Mantis players I know fight in the same manner. Closing in very quickly and moving out equally quick to maintain the long range.
Even the Lama White Crane folks (many think they could be "Northern" in their spawning)keep a certain distance for their long circular techniques to be effective.
So, I guess that is my perspective.
|
|
|
Post by Eric Ling on Feb 16, 2005 0:32:15 GMT -5
Got pictures here of a Goju "Crane" (?) technique. Any comments?
|
|
|
Post by olddragon on Feb 16, 2005 1:39:58 GMT -5
Got pictures here of a Goju "Crane" (?) technique. Any comments? One of my observations in photos like this is that the punch, for example, needs to close in about 6" to be really devastating, about 3 inches to be a knockout and about 1" to be effective. dont know if that was the comment you were looking for but on the tone of my last note that is the first thing that popped into my mind. Mike O'Leary
|
|