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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 14, 2004 20:44:15 GMT -5
Hi Larry,
Like Cody said, it is good to have another Karate researcher on board. We can all look towards a new horizon.
Okay, got a few questions that I hope would launch our quest in a fruitful manner:-
1. I read someplace that all karate katas are, in actuality, grooming you for the Hakutsuru forms. By this I imagine that Hakutsuru must be the pinnacle of Karate training. My question is simply this: what are the sought after traits found in Hakutsuru that make it so singular. Pardon my ignorance here but I would really like to hear from a Karate researcher like you. 2. You mentioned Nipapo (28 Steps). Which version do you do? I’ve seen 4 so far excluding my own Whooping Crane’s. 3. Do you do Haporen (8 linking steps) in your system too? 4. San Chin, which version do you do?
Larry, do not be overly concerned. I am not out to prove anything. If you have been following this forum, you must know what make me tick.
Simply the truth.
Anything else is not worth losing time over.
Thank you.
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Post by CStephens on Oct 14, 2004 21:16:46 GMT -5
1. I read someplace that all karate katas are, in actuality, grooming you for the Hakutsuru forms. By this I imagine that Hakutsuru must be the pinnacle of Karate training. My question is simply this: what are the sought after traits found in Hakutsuru that make it so singular. Though though this wasn't directed at me, I'd like to hazard a guess. I once came across an article by an instructor of Matsumura Seito Shorinryu Karate which pertained to the popular drive of the system's students to learn Hakutsuru. As I understood it, he was addressing the same attitude that seems to occur in many students of most styles with regards to the system's final form. For me, I'd never heard of Hakutsuru (inside the dojo or out) until I began to research the White Crane and Monk Fist influences on Okinawa Te. Sorry for the hijack, just my two cents.
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Post by MightBHooked on Oct 15, 2004 10:15:35 GMT -5
Hi Larry, Like Cody said, it is good to have another Karate researcher on board. We can all look towards a new horizon. Okay, got a few questions that I hope would launch our quest in a fruitful manner:- Hi Eric, you're giving me too much credit. I'm afraid I will not be too much help regarding Hakutsuru forms. This is all still new to me. I have too, but cannot confirm or deny this. From what I can gather it's split down the middle or who you talk to. Some yes and some say no, from what I read. Some instructors say so, others don't. I haven't formed an opinion on this, yet. For Shorinryu it's Gojushiho (54 Steps). What I can gather is that it is/was some say a secret kata. Years ago it wasn't mentioned like it is now. Back in 1972, in New York City, my instructor had seen Shimpo Matayoshi perform a kata called golden rooster, which he never seen before. He said it was a beautiful kata though. I honestly don't know. I have an idea but, would be ignorant of me to say here without knowing for sure. I can find out. I don't think so. From what I know, Shorinryu used to practice Sanchin over 100 years ago. So, we do not practice it today in our system. What we do practice is Naihanchin or Naihanchi (3 of them). I have read somewhere, the Chinese name was Dai po chin / Dai po chi, but never read that anywhere else or found any other sources on that name. It [Naihanchin] has the same principles as Gojuryu's Sanchin. Sorry for the vague reply. Hey, if you don't know, you don't know. ;D Thanks.
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 15, 2004 10:36:21 GMT -5
Source: Mark Bishop, Okinawan karate. 1989.
First my excuse for the bad translations, I have only a Dutch translation from my late friend Drs. Harry de Spa.
Hohan Soken: he learned at age 23 the form Hakutsuru (page 64).
“…. Soken remembered that the Kata Hakutsuru frequently was practiced on a 30 cm broad plank over the water/ pond. Many of the postures were rather acrobatic done on the forefoot. The arms were extended sideways, from the elbow, to imitate the actions of the wings. Breathing is very important because it creates ‘Bu No Chikara…………”<br> Regards,
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 16, 2004 10:23:33 GMT -5
Hi Cody, Larry and Evert,
Thank you all for your replies.
I don’t do karate but many of my friends are karate old-horses.
Mainly from Shi To-ryu, Goju-Ryu and one from Kei-Shin-Kan which I believe, is another version of Shotokan. These guys have been doing karate for decades and they all started out training with instructors deployed from Japan during the pioneer days of karate in Singapore.
We talk over the years and oddly not once did the topic of White Crane creep into any of our exchanges. We all have the same opinion that karate consists of kung fu touches from various Fukien styles but the idea that White Crane could be the one source, honestly, was never discussed.
So why the fascination with White Crane now? Or to put it in another way, by a White Crane teacher here, what is so White Crane about Karate?
I have been following some arguments in other forums and I come away with these:-
1) San Chin – This is a White Crane form also done in Karate. But if you look at Karate San Chin, it could be from a number of Fukien style kung fu. And if this is taken further, that Karate’s root is Whooping Crane, the inconsistency is even bigger. Whooping Crane’s SanJin cannot be more different that Karate San Chin.
2) Tun,Tu, Fo, Chen or Swallowing, Spitting, Floating and Sinking. This is cited as another proof of the White Crane/ Karate relationship. TTFC is common to most Fukien Kung Fu. And this is only a small portion of Whooping Crane’s fundamental doctrines. It is the absent portion that makes Whooping Crane so exceptional among all the various crane sects. I would even call those identifying doctrines of Whooping Crane.
3) Other Whooping Crane’s forms now practiced as kata. I have seen a few – mainly from Russ Smith’s library. My feelings about these can be found in the other thread.
I am not trying to prove that karate is not White Crane – none of my business.
But I think somewhere along the way, things were twisted and bent to fit into certain angles. Much of this is done to White Crane or to be more obvious, Whooping Crane.
Now, I am being forced into the business.
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Post by CStephens on Oct 16, 2004 11:31:49 GMT -5
But I think somewhere along the way, things were twisted and bent to fit into certain angles. Much of this is done to White Crane or to be more obvious, Whooping Crane. The Number 1 Reason for this? Marketing. People tend to pay more moolah for the "esoteric, strange" things than for the "mundane." My personal interest in White Crane as relates to Karate is this: I want to further my understanding of my art, thus becoming more proficient in it. I also have a very big interest in Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu and the Drunken arts. All of it leads me, I believe, to a deeper understanding of my chosen art.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 16, 2004 21:08:53 GMT -5
Hi Cody, What a cynical view! Cannot say I disagree though. For those who think White Crane is esoteric or exclusive in any sense, well I got a secret to share – it is not. Been doing it all my life, literally grew up with it, and had ample opportunities to compare with other fighting forms. My honest humble opinion is White Crane is “special” just like any other CKF is different. It’s all up to the individuals – you make the art what it is through your own polishing. You walk the path – to use the lingo that Evert & I so frequently applies. There is no secret formula and I dare anyone who says otherwise. I think the current convolution surrounding White Crane is a sum total of:- 1. What you mentioned to a certain extent. Mainly in the Western world. I think the problem is initiated by status struggle – “I am more original than you” and exacerbated by authors selling books that feed this scenario. 2. Researchers, with all the right heart, talking to the wrong people. I said this in my earlier posting and I am re-asserting here: Fuzhou Cranes hardly survive in mainland China anymore. It has been so for the last 50 years at least. So Cody, being motivated and manipulated by moolah is not a Western syndrome. For the right price, you can get a lot of different color monkeys to turn tricks – easy. 3. Honest goof-ups – Look at what is happening in this forum. We are all well-connected via the Internet, everything on a real time basis. We are all talking to one and another in different shades of English and yet we still bump into walls every now and then. Picture you trying to talk to some natives in an alien language and trying to talk about something as knotty as kung fu history and concepts. Hey even the Chinese themselves cannot see a straight line in these subjects. One miss-step and you end up in a different turf altogether. I am not overstating here at all. I’ve seen this happened within CKF domain numerous times. Even Martin Watts would tell you it is not a breeze trying to tell the world his Yong Chun story. 4. Cons – I personally know one or 2. High disciples of moolah pai kung fu. In my book, these are the weird birds. But Cody, I believe what an American said sometime back; you can fool some of the people some of the time………… Real neat guy.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 16, 2004 21:20:16 GMT -5
My personal interest in White Crane as relates to Karate is this: I want to further my understanding of my art, thus becoming more proficient in it. I also have a very big interest in Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu and the Drunken arts. All of it leads me, I believe, to a deeper understanding of my chosen art. Drunken kung fu - I drink tons of Carlsberg, Tiger, Hieneken. Coors..........so I am the real expert - ask me anything. If I stay sober long enough, I would answer you. Hahahaha Lohan - okay you come to the right tea shop. Lohan in on the menu. Besides Shaolin Lohan, my Whooping Crane is rumoured to be a blend of Lohan and Fukien White Crane. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by CStephens on Oct 16, 2004 23:08:21 GMT -5
Drunken kung fu - I drink tons of Carlsberg, Tiger, Hieneken. Coors..........so I am the real expert - ask me anything. If I stay sober long enough, I would answer you. Ah. I bow to your superior Inibriated Kung Fu skillz. Teach me, I implore you!!! ;D Of course, I may not excel in this art, as the strongest thing I drink is Gatorade.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 17, 2004 4:23:33 GMT -5
Ha Ha Ha Cody-San,
2 steps to admission.
#1. Must furnish photo id to prove that you are of legal drinking(ooops)learning age for drunken kung fu.
#2. Must provide bank A/C statement that you can afford expensive lessons. Show the right digits, your Gatorade flaw will be forgiven.
Cheers or Kang Pei (meaning dry your cup or mug or whatever containers you use for your alcohol).
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Post by CStephens on Oct 17, 2004 9:28:03 GMT -5
I am as broke as broke can get. I checked. There are homeless people with more money than me.
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Post by Gary on Oct 21, 2004 8:52:09 GMT -5
Hi,
I wrote the following on the other forum. Then I was told not to do so for some reasons.
Anyhow, would like to share with you my little knowledge of Okinawa Bujutsu.
------------------------------------------- Hi there,
I was introduced to this forum by my brother and find this topic rather interesting.
I am too a simple man with little knowledge, and I do not practice White Crane. But I do spend a year in Okinawa and had made many friends who were Karate Sensei.
I would like to share my limited knowledge about Okinawa Martial Arts with you.
My Okinawan friend, who was a black belt 6 dan Sholin Ryu master told me that there were a number of schools of martial arts in Okinawa during the pre-modern Karate era (generally, this refers to the time before the Gojuryu was founded).
These schools were generally called ¡§Shuri Te¡¨, named after the old capital of Ryukyu Kingdom. ¡§Te¡¨ means hand.
Under this loose definition of Shuri Te, there are ¡§Sholin Ryu¡¨, ¡§Uechi Ryu¡¨, etc.
All of them admit they have Chinese lineage: Sholin Ryu from Northern Shao Lin, and Uechi from Fujian ¡§Hoa Koon¡¨ (Tiger Fist).
I have seen masters from these two schools perform their arts. Although in the eyes of Okinawan martial arts practitioners, Sholin Ryu is a rather ¡§soft¡¨ form of Karate, it is very ¡§hard¡¨ compare with many Chinese martial arts, especially with the Northern Shaolin martial arts.
My point is that the form of the arts may change or evolve after one or two generations, depending on who learn and pass the arts to their disciples. This is possible especially in Okinawa.
Uchinanchu are very keen to learn and master martial arts because of their history. And they are very innovative.
I taught this friend of mine the Tai Zu form of Wuzuquan because I felt this is the closest to his form. He liked it. He told me that it would be impossible for him to master forms of Luo Han, He, Hou, or Xuan Nu.
About one year after I returned to my country, he came and learned from my master.
He founded his own school when he returned to Okinawa. He told everyone his lineage: a combination of Sholin Ryu and Wuzuquan.
To the Uchinanchu, this is very common. They learn and master a new art, interprete it their own ways, and then they may establish a new school. There is nothing wrong with that.
Before Miyagi Chojun (sorry, the spelling maybe wrong), the founder of Goju Ryu (which is under the ¡§Naha Te¡¨) crossed the sea to learn martial arts in mainland China, he had already learned traditional Okinawan martial arts from two very famous masters in Okinawa.
He first went to Shanghai, and hoped to learn at the Jingwu Tiyuhui (Jingwu Pugilistic Association). For some reasons, he did not stay in Shanghai for long. He returned to Okinawa.
Then he went to Fuzhou and stayed there for almost 10 years. He founded Goju Ryu after returning from China.
I attended an Enbukai organized by Goju Ryu in Okinawa then. There was a photograph in the publication given away at the Enbukai. It showed two bared body men doing kumite. It looked exactly like some of those sketches in the Bubishi. You definitely cannot see anything like this in today¡¦s Goju Ryu kumite.
Goju Ryu emphasizes ¡§Tun, Tu, Fu, Chen¡¨, which is common in most Crane based Fujian martial arts. Having spent almost 10 years in Fuzhou, where Crane has been very popular, it is no wonder Master Miyagi had adopted this concept too. In fact, ¡§Goju¡¨ (Go=Hard, Ju=Soft) is also a common concept in Crane based Fujian martial arts.
The only question is how much did his master in Fuzhou teach him? How did he interpret what he had been taught, considering that he was already a master in traditional Okinawan martial arts before he went to Fuzhou?
On a separate note, many Wuzuquan practitioners thought since Goju Ryu has Sanjin, it maybe influenced by Wuzuquan. I beg to differ. Looking at the history of Goju Ryu, and knowing that Sanjin is a common Kata name in many schools of Fujian martial arts, I believe it is more of a Crane lineage than a Wuzuquan¡¦s.
Sorry for this long winded and academic-like article. I maybe wrong but this is what I know about the connection of Crane and Goju Ryu.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 21, 2004 9:58:59 GMT -5
Hi, I wrote the following on the other forum. Then I was told not to do so for some reasons. Anyhow, would like to share with you my little knowledge of Okinawa Bujutsu. ------------------------------------------- Hi there, I was introduced to this forum by my brother and find this topic rather interesting. I am too a simple man with little knowledge, and I do not practice White Crane. But I do spend a year in Okinawa and had made many friends who were Karate Sensei. I would like to share my limited knowledge about Okinawa Martial Arts with you. My Okinawan friend, who was a black belt 6 dan Sholin Ryu master told me that there were a number of schools of martial arts in Okinawa during the pre-modern Karate era (generally, this refers to the time before the Gojuryu was founded). These schools were generally called ¡§Shuri Te¡¨, named after the old capital of Ryukyu Kingdom. ¡§Te¡¨ means hand. Under this loose definition of Shuri Te, there are ¡§Sholin Ryu¡¨, ¡§Uechi Ryu¡¨, etc. All of them admit they have Chinese lineage: Sholin Ryu from Northern Shao Lin, and Uechi from Fujian ¡§Hoa Koon¡¨ (Tiger Fist). I have seen masters from these two schools perform their arts. Although in the eyes of Okinawan martial arts practitioners, Sholin Ryu is a rather ¡§soft¡¨ form of Karate, it is very ¡§hard¡¨ compare with many Chinese martial arts, especially with the Northern Shaolin martial arts. My point is that the form of the arts may change or evolve after one or two generations, depending on who learn and pass the arts to their disciples. This is possible especially in Okinawa. Uchinanchu are very keen to learn and master martial arts because of their history. And they are very innovative. I taught this friend of mine the Tai Zu form of Wuzuquan because I felt this is the closest to his form. He liked it. He told me that it would be impossible for him to master forms of Luo Han, He, Hou, or Xuan Nu. About one year after I returned to my country, he came and learned from my master. He founded his own school when he returned to Okinawa. He told everyone his lineage: a combination of Sholin Ryu and Wuzuquan. To the Uchinanchu, this is very common. They learn and master a new art, interprete it their own ways, and then they may establish a new school. There is nothing wrong with that. Before Miyagi Chojun (sorry, the spelling maybe wrong), the founder of Goju Ryu (which is under the ¡§Naha Te¡¨) crossed the sea to learn martial arts in mainland China, he had already learned traditional Okinawan martial arts from two very famous masters in Okinawa. He first went to Shanghai, and hoped to learn at the Jingwu Tiyuhui (Jingwu Pugilistic Association). For some reasons, he did not stay in Shanghai for long. He returned to Okinawa. Then he went to Fuzhou and stayed there for almost 10 years. He founded Goju Ryu after returning from China. I attended an Enbukai organized by Goju Ryu in Okinawa then. There was a photograph in the publication given away at the Enbukai. It showed two bared body men doing kumite. It looked exactly like some of those sketches in the Bubishi. You definitely cannot see anything like this in today¡¦s Goju Ryu kumite. Goju Ryu emphasizes ¡§Tun, Tu, Fu, Chen¡¨, which is common in most Crane based Fujian martial arts. Having spent almost 10 years in Fuzhou, where Crane has been very popular, it is no wonder Master Miyagi had adopted this concept too. In fact, ¡§Goju¡¨ (Go=Hard, Ju=Soft) is also a common concept in Crane based Fujian martial arts. The only question is how much did his master in Fuzhou teach him? How did he interpret what he had been taught, considering that he was already a master in traditional Okinawan martial arts before he went to Fuzhou? On a separate note, many Wuzuquan practitioners thought since Goju Ryu has Sanjin, it maybe influenced by Wuzuquan. I beg to differ. Looking at the history of Goju Ryu, and knowing that Sanjin is a common Kata name in many schools of Fujian martial arts, I believe it is more of a Crane lineage than a Wuzuquan¡¦s. Sorry for this long winded and academic-like article. I maybe wrong but this is what I know about the connection of Crane and Goju Ryu. Hi Gary, Welcome to our little forum. You mentioned that this a re-post, where was the original done? After reading your posting, I need to make clear a few things, if you don’t mind:- 1. I take it that you are from Wuzhu? 2. You are also a Karate-ka? 3. Your position, in your message, is that Goju-ryu is more crane-spawned as opposed to Wu-zhu? 4. You are familiar with the various cranes of Fukien and Fuzhou ? 5. Particularly, which line of Goju are you talking about? As I understand it, different lines are saying dissimilar things pertaining to roots in China? 6. You have substantiation that Uechi-ryu is Tiger boxing? 7. You also know for certain that Sholin-ryu is Northern Shaolin? Are we talking Fo-jia or Su-jia here? 8. The crane that you pointed, is it Fukien (i.e Yong Chun) or MingHe (Fuzhou Whooping Crane). MingHe’s Xia Zhong Xian being the often-cited teacher of many Okinawan karate pioneers. 9. Or are your referring to Gokenki (Wang Hsien Kui) – the Chinese-Okinawan who taught folks like Mabuni-Sensei of Shi To-ryu? 10. The “Bubishi” you quoted – is this the Japanese version or the original Chinese “Wu Bei Chi”? The Chinese version is widely believed to be Shaolin boxing and not White Crane. Gary, sorry for all the questions. But before we continue, I need to know a little about where you are coming from. Then I would know where we should be going to. Thank you very much.
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Post by Gary on Oct 22, 2004 10:47:38 GMT -5
Dear Eric,
Thank you for your reply.
Well, as I mentioned in my message, I am just a simple man with little knowledge.
What I wanted was to share my personal encounter with Okinawan pugilistic masters and my view on the possible relations between White Crane and Karate.
It is just an alternative view. Sometimes you need to pull yourselves out from something you have been working too hard on, and take a third-party view at it. You may find something different, though not necessarily correct.
As for the roots of Shaolin Ryu and Uechi Ryu, you have to see it with your eyes, or Keiko with the masters, then you will understand.
I suggest you read my message again, if you do not mind.
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Post by MightBHooked on Oct 22, 2004 12:33:22 GMT -5
I taught this friend of mine the Tai Zu form of Wuzuquan because I felt this is the closest to his form. He liked it. He told me that it would be impossible for him to master forms of Luo Han, He, Hou, or Xuan Nu. Hi Gary, I've been to Okinawa and practice Shorin Ryu karatedo. I hope to go back in 2006. I have some questions that I hope you can answer: What form or forms from Shorin Ryu are similar to the forms of Wuzuquan that you practice? Being that you lived in Okinawa and trained with the masters (Shorin, Goju, and Uechi Ryu), do you see a direct correlation to your style? What branch of "Shaolin Ryu" does your friend study under? Thanks in advance, Larry
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