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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 22, 2004 21:45:44 GMT -5
Dear Eric, Thank you for your reply. Well, as I mentioned in my message, I am just a simple man with little knowledge. What I wanted was to share my personal encounter with Okinawan pugilistic masters and my view on the possible relations between White Crane and Karate. It is just an alternative view. Sometimes you need to pull yourselves out from something you have been working too hard on, and take a third-party view at it. You may find something different, though not necessarily correct. As for the roots of Shaolin Ryu and Uechi Ryu, you have to see it with your eyes, or Keiko with the masters, then you will understand. I suggest you read my message again, if you do not mind. Hi Gary, Thank you for your reply. Now I know where I should be heading. First, just allow me to say that I am not really working on anything on the possible relationship between White Crane and Karate. To do so would entail that I be conversant in both – I am really nowhere near that. Not in White Crane and definitely not in Karate. Like you, I just want to share the little that I do know and also in a small way provide an alternate view to what is held as the truth. I have never refuted that much of Karate came from exchanges between Okinawans and Chinese pugilists sometime back in history. I think I won’t be faulted even as to say that a lot of Okinawan/Japanese cultural traditions came from the Chinese. But to single out White Crane as the prime source is really something that I need to be persuaded Considering:- • That besides Tun,Tu,Fou and Chen, little or nothing else from White Crane is carried in Karate. Nothing definitively White Crane. TTFC is widespread in many Fukien style Kung Fu. In some of my earlier forum postings elsewhere, I presented that Yong Chun White Crane might be a more possible source taking into account their embedded principles. TTFC is the quintessential of Yong Chun Crane. Even Tai Chor and Ngo Chor offer a closer resemblance. But if you check carefully, Whooping Crane seems to be the center of this entire discord. I am in no way denying that TTFC is significant in Whooping Crane. But, humbly, I think it is the other aspects of Whooping Crane that render it so unique among all the Fukien/Fuzhou Cranes. To point out just one example, the 5 elements philosophy takes a very central place in Whooping Crane. No less important than TTFC. To do Whooping Crane and not including it is likened to doing Tai Chi and not knowing Fa-jin. • Forms – If you have read some of my earlier postings, you must have come across the part that I said SanChin is the only Okinawan/Japanese Kata that Chinese Kung Fu folks could relate to. Have you seen Whooping Crane’s SanJin? We do all the 5 elements hand along with TTFC and the form is really more about leading/deflecting jin more than anything else. The form includes 2 signature White Crane kicks that are repeated in many other of our forms. • Principles of fighting – I am a big believer of principles and not techniques. To me, techniques are simply the expression of your foundational principles. My Sifu taught me that principles are the keys to your system. One cannot really say to have learned anything unless the keys are mastered. My question has always been this; what are the principles of Whooping Crane transmitted and how are they manifested in Karate? And truly, one must see with his own eyes when doing any form of appraising. In that vein, can I ask you; have you seen the real Whooping Crane? A very good friend of mine, a 7th dan Goju and onetime chief instructor of Singapore Goju Kai, was in Okinawa for some training. Before Goju, he did White Crane with his family. He is Fuzhou like me. After a couple of years in Okinawa, his conclusion of this matter is: Karate is very Fukien Kung Fu, no doubt. But not explicitly any one style. And this is an observation that is prevalent among Chinese Karate practitioners. Especially those who are straddling both worlds – karate and White Crane. So in the final analysis, you are right. Look through one own lenses, color the truth somewhat? Not that black and white anymore?
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Post by Gary on Oct 23, 2004 2:09:20 GMT -5
Dear Larry,
"What form or forms from Shorin Ryu are similar to the forms of Wuzuquan that you practice?"
NO.
"Being that you lived in Okinawa and trained with the masters (Shorin, Goju, and Uechi Ryu), do you see a direct correlation to your style?"
NO.
"What branch of "Shaolin Ryu" does your friend study under?"
IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN, THERE IS ONLY ONE SHOLINRYU MASTER WHO IS ALSO PRACTICING WUZUQUAN AND FOUNDED HIS OWN SCHOOL.
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Post by Gary on Oct 23, 2004 3:07:21 GMT -5
Dear Eric,
Thank you for your reply.
I believe you have missed what I wrote in my message:
"The only question is how much did his (Miyagi Chojun's) master in Fuzhou teach him? How did he interpret what he had been taught, considering that he was already a master in traditional Okinawan martial arts before he went to Fuzhou?"
It is really not important to me if it is Hokchiew Hok, Chuanchiew Ho, Shi He, Fei He, Ming He or any other forms of Hok Koon, as I am not going to trace the relations between Karate and White Crane (I used this as a general term to describe the crane-based Fujian martial arts).
I was just providing my personal experience as an alternative view to those who are interested in this topic.
As I wrote in my message, I do not practice White Crane. Neither do I practice Karate. But I believe this should not stop me from sharing my own experience with people who are interested in this topic.
By the way, I have seen an old White Crane master from China (he was then over 70 years old) performed a kata in Okinawa. I cannot remember the name of the kata, but it was 3 steps forward and 3 steps backward, very typical Fujian Crane-based martial arts form.
After his performance, I heard some Okinawan Karate masters talking among themselves that the form was "similar" but the way this Chinese master did it was very different from theirs, and they were puzzled.
By the way, please do not ask me if this is the only time I saw a Crane master perform. I am just giving an example here to elaborate what I wanted to say.
Gary
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 23, 2004 7:17:31 GMT -5
Hi Gary,
Apologies for “missing” the substance of your messages. Sorry.
Okay, let’s do this again from your perspective.
How much did Miyagi-San acquired out of Fuzhou – I guess we will never really know for sure. How much did he modify based on his own experience – ditto.
My premise is simply this:-
Unless we know the answer to the first question, the 2nd question has no basis.
Looking at what is done in Karate these days (I have seen quite a bit), it would appear that Karate is either utterly unrelated or have since drifted very far away from whatever White Crane source it came from.
Not only stylistically divergent, but even the basic intent is different.
Your story of the Chinese Sanchin Master is one good example. Forms are designed to be executed in a particular manner to achieve exacting ends. The reason why old Kung Fu teachers apply so much effort to accurate transmission of forms. Here I am reminded of my late teacher’s frequent saying; Even the hair must be correct!
Do it differently, you end up in a different place.
If you are a Kung Fu practitioner, you will know precisely what I mean.
The shape and the spirit must be attuned to the original plan.
With that I hope we give this issue a rest.
Thank you very much for your views.
Looking forward to more contributions from you in other areas.
Xie Xie.
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Post by MightBHooked on Oct 23, 2004 13:02:50 GMT -5
Dear Larry, "What branch of "Shaolin Ryu" does your friend study under?" IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN, THERE IS ONLY ONE SHOLINRYU MASTER WHO IS ALSO PRACTICING WUZUQUAN AND FOUNDED HIS OWN SCHOOL. Dear Gary, Thank you very much for responding. I think you misunderstood my question. From my experience and limited knowledge, they're several different branches / sects of ShorinRyu (Shorin, the Okinawan way of saying Shaolin) on Okinawa (new one being added all the time). One way of denoting this are, the first character in the Chinese ideogram for ShorinRyu / ShaolinLiu. Other ways would be the teacher and the way their basics and kata are done. What's the name of your friend's instructor who he obtained 6th dan from? The reason I ask the question is, it helps me to better understand what school of ShorinRyu you're referring to. Thank you, Larry
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Post by Gary on Oct 24, 2004 8:39:19 GMT -5
Dear Larry,
Thank you for your message. I think you too misunderstood my answer.
I know there are different branches of Shorinryu in Okinawa. Unfortunately, I do not know who his teacher was. I only knew he was 6th dan, and had two dojo when I met him in Okinawa about 18 years ago.
He founded his own school after learning Ngo Chor from my late master and returning to Okinawa. He also went to the Philippines to learn from the Ngo Chor master there after that.
You can ask your friends in Okinawa, they should know him.
Gary
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 24, 2004 10:09:27 GMT -5
Hi Gary, Are we tallking about Goshukan Ryu karate founded by Takamiyagi Hiroshi Sensei ? This is his version combining ShuriTe and Ngo Chor Kun. You mentioned he studied with your late teacher, so are you Singaporean? Connected to Tiong Hua by any chance? If your answer is yes to my 2 questions, then you must know my Sikong and Sifu - Quek Yong Hor and Teo Choon Teck. Thanks.
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Post by MightBHooked on Oct 25, 2004 11:54:42 GMT -5
Hi Gary,
Thank you again for responding.
This is so true.
I think UechiRyu forms have a closer resemblance to Chinese forms then ShorinRyu forms. I had seen Martin Watts Sanzhan or Sanjin (please bare with me on the spelling) from his website. His version looks similar to UechiRyu's Sanchin. Then again I've seen pictures of the Chinese forms that remind me of my ShorinRyu forms; go figure.
Larry
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Post by MightBHooked on Oct 25, 2004 12:04:45 GMT -5
Eric, don't forget us Karate practitioner's too. ;D
ShorinRyu has the same principle.
Thanks, Larry
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 25, 2004 21:40:39 GMT -5
Eric, don't forget us Karate practitioner's too. ;D ShorinRyu has the same principle. Thanks, Larry True, Larry, very true. Only reason I exclude mentioning Karate is because of my lack of knowledge in this area. I suppose, at the end of the day, we are feel the same. All our founders meant for their arts to be done in a certain manner. Expanding and blending, in my book, is totally okay. My thing is when folks with little or poor understanding start doing it differently and insist that they got it right - aaarrggh. Like to quote a very good friend :- "Folks sought to change stuff because they don't get it". If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. Understand perfectly how you feel. ;D
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