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Post by Supbatumgingsau on Feb 6, 2005 8:36:55 GMT -5
First of all, hello to everyone. This is an excellent forum started by Messrs. Ling, Evert and Watts and exactly what the kind of forum I've been looking for for a long time.
I was reading Yang Cheng fu / Chen wei mings "Art of Tai chi chuan" and in one of the chapters it discusses the posture one should always maintain while practicing. In brief these are:
1: "The energy at the top of the head/ suspension on a string"
2: Sink the chest and raise the back
3: relax the waist as the waist is the ruler of the body
4: Sink the shoulders and drop the elbows
5: use mind not strength
These principles are also found in Xing-yi and pa-kua.
Not surprising you may think as they are the major "internal" styles of today and they should share similar if not the same principles. What did surprise me at the time of reading Yang Cheng fu's work was that I am a Chow gar tong long player and my own sifu had been telling me to do exactly the same things long before I had decided to expand my knowledege and read about other styles.
Given that there has been much discussion between the similarities between kek and hokkien styles, have any of the other forum members been taught anything similar? And if so, does this mean that the arts we practice are fundamentally internal in terms of their developmental root than external. i.e. are we a lot more closely related to tai chi, xing yi etc than we are to say northern praying mantis.
Further to that, does that mean that we need to review our own training or pratice? There was discussions in a previous thread on samchien. If that is practiced more soong rather than gnang, using intention are there hidden benefits or significant differences to training this way?
I look forward to reading your opinions and thoughts.
Lee
P.S. I don't normally post because I don't get regular access to a computer so if you're putting a question to me or looking for me to clarify what I'm saying please be patient, I'll get back to you when I can.
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Post by Nataraya on Feb 7, 2005 8:30:16 GMT -5
Dear Lee,
Sap Paat Um Geng Sau or the 18 Internal Dark Power hands, nice nickname. I am pleased to hear that a Chow Ga player is onboard. First, I have a lot of respect for your branch Lee, really good kung fu!
Chow Ga seems so External, yet you discovered the “Internal” path, which resembles a lot of your journey. Read more Classics and find out that the discussion about Internal and External might be the first step. Teacher Paul Withrod, is a nice example about this......
Alignment plays an important role too in Hakka arts, think about the role of Ngaak Geng in the forms. And the position of the head/ neck in general. Every detail have to deal with power, Saam Faat and Shun Faat and so Hei Faat.
Especially in the dynamic Hei Kung exercises you will find all these (so called) Internal trademarks back. Pivoting the pelvis, the role of the mind, lower Tantien. I have seen (and read) quite a bit of the Ip Shui branch, and it is clear that Chow Ga presents a beautiful balance of Internal & External play. But this doesn’t count only for CGTL. Once you know where to look at, you will be suddenly surrounded with these signs and symptoms.
Reviewing our way of training? Believe me the path you are walking is one that is polished by many generations. Every step have a meaning. Changing this process might give problems and is ‘disrespectful’ to your teacher and his ancestors. Just keep on walking and enjoy every step. Once you will see the beauty of the ‘whole’.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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DF
New Member
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Post by DF on Feb 7, 2005 21:57:34 GMT -5
What is internal and external really?
For me all good martial arts players from all different styles will show quality of both internal and external.
Internal cultivation does not come from any one particular style or form. A good kf player will have the quality of yi doa sao doa/ the hands will reach when the intend is there, and the usage of the whole body in every move.
Not to hijack the thread but I just want to point out that at one time internal arts were considered systems that were developed within China and external arts were those outside of China, namely the systems with Taoist or budhist influance.
I enjoy and respect allsystem of kf and each one of us must find a path that we enjoy.
DF
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 7, 2005 22:57:54 GMT -5
What is internal and external really? For me all good martial arts players from all different styles will show quality of both internal and external. Internal cultivation does not come from any one particular style or form. A good kf player will have the quality of yi doa sao doa/ the hands will reach when the intend is there, and the usage of the whole body in every move. Not to hijack the thread but I just want to point out that at one time internal arts were considered systems that were developed within China and external arts were those outside of China, namely the systems with Taoist or budhist influance. I enjoy and respect allsystem of kf and each one of us must find a path that we enjoy. DF Yes yes yes, so very right. How to have internal without external or external without internal?? I don’t get it! To share some “old” wisdom from some “old” Masters here:- • All “hard” arts lead to something soft and all “soft” arts lead to something hard. How you start is immaterial. You must end up complete. With both. • Among the old “SiaoLim” (Shaolin in Fukien) Masters, internal are students taken in-door. External are general students going through “standard” syllabus. Going back to the first point, let’s take Tai Chi – considered the “softest” by most folks. Back when I was a kid, I was watching many Tai Chi Masters training. And the way they trained could be mistaken for “hard” Kung Fu training. Bridge conditionings, sparring drills etc etc….. And in many Lei Tais (sparring tournaments) those days, Tai Chi was amply represented. Know what, many walked away champions beating stylists from purportedly “hard” styles. The old CKF idiom; “Externally you train tendons and bones. Internally you train your Chi (breath).”<br> I cannot imagine just training one half. |
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Fatman
Full Member
Large Member
Posts: 137
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Post by Fatman on Feb 8, 2005 0:09:36 GMT -5
I personally think the internal/external division is a bit artificial. All are martial arts, differing only in training methodology (and sometimes a few techniques here and there). They are all just different roads to the same destination.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 9, 2005 3:28:36 GMT -5
A page here showing Tai Chi exponents training for Lei Tai. These folks are from a Hong kong Tai Chi School - Wu's style.  |
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Hungfist
Full Member
...gotta launder my Karma.
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Post by Hungfist on Feb 13, 2005 4:08:57 GMT -5
Internal and external are yin and yang to each other and need to be balanced. One without the other makes one incomplete. There is no right or wrong here. Just effort.
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Post by Nataraya on Feb 13, 2005 4:51:13 GMT -5
A few hours per day I work on the Intensive care unit of our rehabilitation center. Here I focus absolutely 'extreme ' Internal stages. People who are in coma. They can't breath, eat, talk, no stool. Looking to the eyes, you see sometimes some little fasciculations of the eyes. Physical absence, although (what we heard back sometimes) they can hear you. You can state, there is only mind/ awareness.......
The next stage, the can open their eyes. But still can't do anything. They do not respond to your words, even can'r roatet their eyes. Still on the breathing machine, while we feed them directly in the blood.
making a huge jump to Tai Chi now. Does the body move. How much physical strength do you need to rise up from squat? Or standing on one leg, rotate and kick at the sametime? Anybody have an idea about the FORCE - that a knee handles - when the leg is bend. Or the FORCE as measured during the posture (Needle at the Seabottom).
Sorry, to be sound Black/ White (some like that), but the question is and stay. What is Internal and what is External? From what I read, they are entities that are presented (and handled) completely out of control.
For me it is a different path on the same mountain. And guess. The so called Internalists and Externalists will finally meet at the top, and have a great time together. With carlsberg, Heineken and some nice foot. Looking upwards to the Sky and start discussion how to solve the next stage..................
Hendrik, looking out for your ideas.........
warm regards,
Evert
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 13, 2005 5:08:07 GMT -5
Aha Aha,
What has internal/external got to do with Carlsbergs and Heinekens ?
You crazy dutchie....hahahaha
My stand is much simpler.
Ask a internalist to train 100% internal and absolutely nothing external.
And vice versa.
What do we have??
I got absolutely no clue.....
Arrrrghh where is my Carlsberg!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Nataraya on Feb 13, 2005 5:15:50 GMT -5
Eric,
Su Hat Yee (one of the kwantung Sap Fu, Ten tigers of kwantung province) loved alcohol. Tell me, early in the morning (hahahahaha), what do you feel? Or maybe to keep it more clear, after a long day hard work, is the 'drive' to gran a Carlsberg initiated form the Internal or external modus? Be honest?
Carlsbery time is a bad excuse, and playing that night Drunken Crane also. I c an not believe that your wife still believes that your Choi Hok is unique, and that you need to polish that skill EVERY night!
So, if it is an external drive to hold that bottle, then hols a barbell, and put that in yourmouth. Then I agree is is externally, weight training. My advise: increase that weight otherwise you stay like Danny de Vito instead of Schwartzenegger. If it is completely Internally, then lay down in complete passiveness and ask your wife to throw the beer in your throat. hahahahaha.
Prosit,
Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 13, 2005 6:11:20 GMT -5
Eric, Su Hat Yee (one of the kwantung Sap Fu, Ten tigers of kwantung province) loved alcohol. Tell me, early in the morning (hahahahaha), what do you feel? Or maybe to keep it more clear, after a long day hard work, is the 'drive' to gran a Carlsberg initiated form the Internal or external modus? Be honest? Carlsbery time is a bad excuse, and playing that night Drunken Crane also. I c an not believe that your wife still believes that your Choi Hok is unique, and that you need to polish that skill EVERY night! So, if it is an external drive to hold that bottle, then hols a barbell, and put that in yourmouth. Then I agree is is externally, weight training. My advise: increase that weight otherwise you stay like Danny de Vito instead of Schwartzenegger. If it is completely Internally, then lay down in complete passiveness and ask your wife to throw the beer in your throat. hahahahaha. Prosit, Evert. Hahaha you crazy Dutchie, “Choi Hok” is going to be the next biggest thing after powered milk. Reaching for Carlsberg is neither internal nor external; it’s part internal and part external. And ditto to all your other stupid questions.hehehe Haven’t you been paying attention; there cannot solely be one – it is ying/yang, black/white hot/cold blah blah blah….. Okay let's try this one more time:- • You drink beer and it goes internally – are you following this? • Keep drinking and you have a beer belly sticking out which is external expression – see they go hand in hand. Sometimes I think Dutch wood is very hard to carve…..hehehehehe But Dutch beers……mama mia!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by meltdawn on Feb 17, 2005 21:43:01 GMT -5
mmmmmmmmm, beer. dutch beer!! la trappe, trappist! www.latrappe.nl/the la trappe family!.... ... the la trappe family... ... the la trappe family... ok, my humor is pretty bad. blame robert, he brought me here. |
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Post by Eric Ling on Feb 17, 2005 23:26:57 GMT -5
mmmmmmmmm, beer. dutch beer!! la trappe, trappist! www.latrappe.nl/the la trappe family!.... ... the la trappe family... ... the la trappe family... ok, my humor is pretty bad. blame robert, he brought me here. Who cares about humor?  ?? How's your beer? Send samples for verification, please!! ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by sasquatch on Apr 4, 2005 2:52:33 GMT -5
to me internal means using the waist or other joints
against the outer physical strength of an external style and using the body posture for a good root to develop power and stabilitity.
I think the internal styles were invented to defeat the
hard external styles. Of course then there is also the
question of energy transfer from the dan tian (fajing), it is done from a position of sung with a loose fist in the tai chi i learned ,other harder styles I learned tensed the fist on contact, to block the return of energy. Anyways I've been taught Yang Tai Chi (fighting side)and several tibetan harder styles which actually became soft at higher level.
The positions you talk about are correct but you can never understand this without having someone show you for instance what the elbow below the wrist really means, this is what my teacher called curvy arms, basically the peng position. In this position if trained and tested properly the arms can not be moved, meaning no chin na will work , no armbars, wrist locks,
they all become useless, the arms are like iron bars.
I often remember my teacher defeating hard styles by just walking right up to them and simply grabing or striking them down, they could not stop his arms they just cut right throw hard blocks. Anyways if you have interest in any of this internal stuff email me.
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