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Basics
Jan 11, 2005 15:30:10 GMT -5
Post by essence on Jan 11, 2005 15:30:10 GMT -5
Good day everybody.
Some questions that have been bombarding me recently that I hope the members of this forum may be able to shed some light on.
Going back to the very basics of kung fu, especially Nam Kuen, the Sei Ping Ma or Horse Stance. I have been taught many different things regarding this seemingly simple stance and now, this stance seems unable to be perfected.
1st method: No point going too low. Going too low restricts mobility, do it at a sensible height. Stresses on big toe digging into the ground to grow root with feet parallel opened 3 and a half times. Tension in the thighs to ensure grounding and clenching of the backside.
2nd method: Do not let the knees pass the toes. Aiming at getting the thighs parallel to the ground and the shin at a 90 degree angle to the ground (this is the seemingly impossible part as I am 187cm tall and it is very hard to throw my centre of gravity back while keeping my back straight). Toes are spread and not pressed into the ground, imagine a suction cup, to ensure grounding. Again, tension in thighs and clenching of backside. While getting low, ensure that the tailbone is tucked in to maintain the integrity of the back.
3rd method: Aiming at getting thighs parallel to the ground. Shin is not required to be at a 90 degree angle, rather, the knee is used to protect the toes from being stomped in an attack. Grounding is via toes gripping the ground. Again, tension in thighs, clenching of backside and tucking in of tailbone.
Why is there such a variation of just a single stance? What should I be looking for?
Another issue is the fist. Again, different schools of thoughts on this matter.
1st method: Make the fist as tight as possible. Contact is via 1st 2 knuckles. I have broken my middle knuckle doing this punch, probably through insufficient conditioning, and doing this method now with considerable strength causes quite some pain to me.
2nd method: Make a hollow fist. Contact is via last 3 knuckles. I find this method of punching to be more natural to me and I have trained myself to align my wrist to this punch better to ensure that I do not bend on contact.
3rd method: Fist is made simply, meaning clenching of the fist properly is not stressed. Contact is via last 2 knuckles. I have never tried this method out, but as Bruce Lee said, clench the fist right at the moment before impact to ensure maximum speed.
Again, so many different opinions on this simple basic thing of forming a fist.
What is everyone's thoughts on these matters? What should I be looking out for/aiming towards? Please feel free to point out what you feel is right for I value everyone's opinions.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Deleted
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Basics
Jan 11, 2005 16:56:14 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 16:56:14 GMT -5
Some time ago I wrote this about punching. It may be intresting for some people:
"That’s probably the first thing an average martial artist will learn when he (or she) in the first lesson; a punch. I know it was one of the first thing I was taught when I started learning Sao Lim Kung Fu. I can’t remember exactly how good or bad my punch was during that time, but most likely it wasn’t any good.
Now, more that 10 years later, I still think my punch isn’t any good. 10 years later, and still punching is my problem? Maybe there are some people who think that is very strange and surprising, but the experienced and serious martial artist should know what is going on here.
Of course I did learn many other things in those 10 years; countless movements, blocking techniques, stances and different ways to attack a person. And all those movements can be led back to a simple punch; improve your punch and your whole style will improve.
A simple punch? Punching isn’t so simple. In fact in a way it becomes more and more difficult. Why? Because there are so many different ways to punch.
By a punch, I mean every attack in a straight line with a fist. The first basic punch is executed with shoulders in a line, and a cork-screw style punch. Copying the person who is teaching you is the best thing you can do at that time. After that you are on your own, and a whole new world opens up to you. Other can only give comments and advise, but you have to do it yourself.
So you want power in your punch, so you try to use a lot of muscle power. The end result usually is a slow moving push-punch, which doesn’t do a lot of harm but will cost you a lot of energy.
Try using weight; the result will be that your body will follow your fist; picture yourself a tired, heavy weight boxer who misses his punch in the last round (12th) and is running after his fist trying to keep up with it.
Okay, let’s try speed. That sounds good. How can you make your fists fast? Not by using a lot of muscular strength, but rather by relaxing the parts of your body that would other wise slow you down.
So now you’re faster, but your punches are ‘empty’; no damage after impact. Another problem…
At the end of your punch, that is when you should use power. At that time there should be a small explosion happening; right at the moment you make contact. You can’t let your fist continue moving; it has to stop somewhere, sometime. Right? Find out where and when. Found it? Then you have an explosive punch.
Focus. That’s interesting as well. What are you punching at? At a person or at his (her) upper body? Or maybe at his head? At his face? At his nose or cheek? Or maybe that freckle on his cheek? Let’s choose the last one. But choosing is not enough; if you are punching you have to focus all your energy, spiritually and mentally on that tiny little spot which is your target. During that short timeframe there should be only one thing on your mind. You really have to WANT to hit it; if not, why bother? Your mind has to be strong to do this one time, let alone repeatedly.
Ever noticed that your fist is wobbling, when practicing punches in the air? Not enough focus. You have to imagine a target in front of you.
Aggressiveness; you need it to create a devastating attack. Maybe aggressive is not the correct word, but is stands for the willpower to destroy. But it needs to be backed by a calm mind, which is in total control the whole time. If not, it is just like an attack by a street fighter who doesn’t care about damaging his own body. First control your own body before you want to control somebody else’s.
Now you’re fast with aggressiveness; but your training partner (or enemy) always seems to know when you’re about punch him. You are telegraphing your punches. Yet again a new dimension to punching. If your adversary is a professional and you telegraph your punches (or any other movement) he will start moving at the same time as you, but will make contact first. When you are making useless movements, like moving your fist 3 mm backward because you feel like it makes your punch stronger, he will put his fist in your face.
Let’s imagine that you are thirsty. And that there is a glass of water in front of you. What do you do? You pick up the glass of water. Voila! There’s your punch.
What did you just do? Did you move your hand backward after you decided to pick up the glass of water? I guess you didn’t. I think you started perfectly motionless and when straight for the glass. Try doing the same thing when punching.
So you want to hit somebody when your fist? Do you think your fist, you hand is a weapon? It’s not; it is in fact living tissue; flesh, tendons and a lot of lose bones. Not a weapon! Make a weapon out of it. If you don’t, and you use an unconditioned fist to attack a person you’re bound to damage yourself instead of your adversary.
A well conditioned palm makes a heavy fist. A heavy fist will change the way you punch drastically; almost like starting over again.
Feel your punch flowing, where does the power come from? Stand firmly on the floor, move your bodyweight and hips, focus, breath well, search for balance, fluidity, speed, awareness and another 1000 other things I know nothing of….
Just a punch. "
Best wishes,
Simon
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Basics
Jan 12, 2005 1:03:07 GMT -5
Post by konghan on Jan 12, 2005 1:03:07 GMT -5
This is the proper way to clinch a fist, wu zu quan style. In wu zu quan we have the form called "di sip kun"or 20 punches this form help develop the proper way to punch with proper energy focusing using the hip, shoulder, arm & tensing the fist once it reached the target. Combining this with, bag work punching using the same concept. The five power principle, leg, hip, shoulder, arm & fist. Combining with proper breathing. Train properly will give your fist that penetrating power punching throw body armour & causing serious unternal injuries. Push ups, chin ups & bench press then do air punching, punch with muscle tensioning the forearm the fist & the wrist. Punch 200x, bag work 200x.
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Basics
Jan 12, 2005 2:39:31 GMT -5
Post by essence on Jan 12, 2005 2:39:31 GMT -5
Good day everybody.
Shaolim: That is a most insightful answer. As I return to my basics, I found all these unanswered questions which I found were left dangling while I moved forward. As I went back to answer the questions which I had left behind many years ago, I found I had to go all the way back to a fist, way before even thinking of throwing the punch.
The answers you provided are in fact, the answers I seek after knowing how to make a proper fist. The eternal quest for speed and power and proper timing and accuracy. I guess this is a factor which will cause me to be a student for the rest of my life, for if I reach a level which satisfies my current self, I will seek out the next level, how to be faster, more explosive, more accurate and better timed.
Thank you so very much for that reply. It tells me a lot and incidentally, my current training is exactly the way you prescribed, as taught by my Australian Sifu, relaxation, explosion at the end of the punch, learning to stop telegraphing my movements.
konghan: Thank you so much for those pictures. I guess what is behind your message is to practice, practice and practice, which is very true. Practicing has led me to query my basics and I feel only from there, when we re-visit what we thought was a good foundation, can we modify it, hopefully for the better, so that we may be able to climb some more.
Thank you for sharing your information as well.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Basics
Jan 12, 2005 5:32:38 GMT -5
Post by Suhana LIM on Jan 12, 2005 5:32:38 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao It's always good to know more stuff. But at the same time can make us "confused". Been in the situation before, the more I heard and read, the more doubts I experienced. More is less, less is more! IMHO, stick to what your sifu taught you. Keep on training diligently. Pardon me on saying this, but keep on "comparing" won't take you anywhere. Cheers
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Basics
Jan 13, 2005 4:31:16 GMT -5
Post by essence on Jan 13, 2005 4:31:16 GMT -5
Good day Suhana.
Beautiful advise, which I will bear in mind. The main problem I face now is that many people (a Hung Gar teacher and a NCK elder) have commented on my basics.
The basics which I showed and was corrected by the NCK elder was my Sei Ping Ma, too low = flawed. However, my Sei Ping Ma's principles holds true to my Australian Sifu's standards.
The punch was corrected by a Hung Gar Sifu here and again, holds true to my Australian Sifu's standards but is not the same here.
In this situation, when everybody is trying to change my basics, it has led to my confusion and I try to hold myself true to the path which I believe is my path, but this is hard to do when the lessons I go to are spent being taught basics and me facing internal conflicts of which is correct.
Any advise you could offer for this situation?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Basics
Jan 13, 2005 5:00:15 GMT -5
Post by Suhana LIM on Jan 13, 2005 5:00:15 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao IMHO, if you think you have a qualified and wonderful sifu, then just follow his guidance. Different people will give you different comments. Just use them as input. But again, you have to decide who you think qualified and know you better.
In the past I've experienced this kind of situation myself. And also seen lot of friends who always "distracted" everytime they hear a good sifu somewhere, or certain good style.
I don't know if you know this story. It's a good example. There was a famous master. So many people try to become his student. They will wait in front of his house. But after three days, the master will open the door and ask them to go home. There is nothing he can teach them, that's what he always tell the crowd. But there is one young man, who keep on waiting, for over three weeks. To see this young man so patient, at last the master agree to teach him. But before he can start the lesson, he ask the young man to pull the tree near the door. Because so anxious to learn from the master, the young man start to try pull the tree. But it's not easy, as the tree is big. One day, weeks, months, passed. After three years, the young man at last can uprooted the tree. He was so happy, and inform the master of this. Then the master asked him to go home. The lesson is finished. If you are strong enough to pull the big tree, there is no one will be brave enough to fight with you. Cheers.
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Basics
Jan 13, 2005 6:19:58 GMT -5
Post by Eric Ling on Jan 13, 2005 6:19:58 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao IMHO, if you think you have a qualified and wonderful sifu, then just follow his guidance. Different people will give you different comments. Just use them as input. But again, you have to decide who you think qualified and know you better. In the past I've experienced this kind of situation myself. And also seen lot of friends who always "distracted" everytime they hear a good sifu somewhere, or certain good style. I don't know if you know this story. It's a good example. There was a famous master. So many people try to become his student. They will wait in front of his house. But after three days, the master will open the door and ask them to go home. There is nothing he can teach them, that's what he always tell the crowd. But there is one young man, who keep on waiting, for over three weeks. To see this young man so patient, at last the master agree to teach him. But before he can start the lesson, he ask the young man to pull the tree near the door. Because so anxious to learn from the master, the young man start to try pull the tree. But it's not easy, as the tree is big. One day, weeks, months, passed. After three years, the young man at last can uprooted the tree. He was so happy, and inform the master of this. Then the master asked him to go home. The lesson is finished. If you are strong enough to pull the big tree, there is no one will be brave enough to fight with you. Cheers. Hi Suhana, Let me say my piece:- No one doubts what you say. It not how much you know but how well you do what you know – this I am sure is drilled into all of us by our respective Sifus. And there is absolutely no ultimate path. But on the other hand, I think Tze Hou is doing right. Keep asking questions. I am sure you went through that phase also in your kung fu training. I know I did. So much so that my Sifu told me to shut up sometimes, I must have upset him with my endless questions. The hunger that Tze Hou is showing is exactly what is missing in the world of traditional CKF. Most youngsters these days can’t even be bothered. I think the situation is dire as far as sustaining TCKF is concerned Personally, I am of the opinion that it is okay to ask and compare. But, stick to your style and train hard. Knowing more never hurts. Who was it who said “Know yourself, know your enemies. A thousand battles, a thousand victories”?. To me all Wu Lin is Yi Jia anyway. ;D ;D ;D
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Basics
Jan 13, 2005 6:38:14 GMT -5
Post by Suhana LIM on Jan 13, 2005 6:38:14 GMT -5
Hi Suhana, Let me say my piece:- No one doubts what you say. It not how much you know but how well you do what you know – this I am sure is drilled into all of us by our respective Sifus. And there is absolutely no ultimate path. But on the other hand, I think Tze Hou is doing right. Keep asking questions. I am sure you went through that phase also in your kung fu training. I know I did. So much so that my Sifu told me to shut up sometimes, I must have upset him with my endless questions. The hunger that Tze Hou is showing is exactly what is missing in the world of traditional CKF. Most youngsters these days can’t even be bothered. I think the situation is dire as far as sustaining TCKF is concerned Personally, I am of the opinion that it is okay to ask and compare. But, stick to your style and train hard. Knowing more never hurts. Who was it who said “Know yourself, know your enemies. A thousand battles, a thousand victories”?. To me all Wu Lin is Yi Jia anyway. ;D ;D ;D Eric ni hao I can see from your point of view. It's good if like Sun Tzu said "Know yourself and know your enemies, you'll never loose the battles." But in certain stage of learning, if one can't concentrate to the lesson, it will not bring benefit. How can one master what he is learning, if at the same time "bussy comparing and looking around." I'm not saying that one should stick to certain style. If you want to do it, fine. But concentrate on what you are doing first. Remember the saying "Rolling stones get no moss." That's why I mentioned to Tze Hou, that in the past at certain period I also experienced what he is experiencing at the moment. I am sure you also ever experienced that. Cheers.
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Basics
Jan 13, 2005 15:42:14 GMT -5
Post by konghan on Jan 13, 2005 15:42:14 GMT -5
"jack of all traits master of none" stay focus on one style & soon you'll be your own master.
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Fatman
Full Member
Large Member
Posts: 137
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Basics
Jan 13, 2005 17:13:56 GMT -5
Post by Fatman on Jan 13, 2005 17:13:56 GMT -5
All good advice here. Pick a master you are happy with and stick with him.
The saying that a punch is a punch is not entirely correct. At face value a punch is indeed just a punch, however the details of the mechanics of that punch differ depending on your stance and power generation technique. Every art has its own technique, and slight differences in stance, so each art will do its punch slightly differently.
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Basics
Jan 14, 2005 14:20:25 GMT -5
Post by essence on Jan 14, 2005 14:20:25 GMT -5
Good day everybody.
I would like to thank you all so much for clearing up my mind. I was indeed, muddled and confused, but the advise from all of you have helped me to become clearer about my path.
Gratefully, Tze Hou
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Basics
Jan 14, 2005 18:23:26 GMT -5
Post by Suhana LIM on Jan 14, 2005 18:23:26 GMT -5
Tze Hou ni hao You are welcome Glad if my humble and simple words can help you. Just CONCENTRATE on what you are currently training. Cheers.
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