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Post by Nataraya on Dec 27, 2004 4:30:43 GMT -5
Tze Hou,
The question is always, how correct are the writings. It is one source from Malaysia which should be seen with some doubts. Still it is nice to keep it in mind.
Ng Hang Fook Fu Kuen is a combination that I never heard of, and have my strong doubts of it. Still the two components are old, this is for me a fact. Both forms presents much Lo Han.
The Gung Ji Kuen part is absolutely added later, and much elementary skills as well as TSK skills are integrated in this part. The beauty of the Gung Ji Kuen form is that it isd NOT a simple part, absolutely NOT. In fact the choreography is GREAT because it is possible to intregrate TSK power drive i it, and so create a whole new experience with the practitioner. With other words, if you have learned GJFFK and TSK, then the second round GJFFK gives you a new form. When time is there you will experience this.
My personal thoughts are that TSK + Ng Ying + Ng Hang = Sap Ying Kuen, was created after 1920, maybe even later?
Hung Hei Gwoon's Sap Ying Kuen could be the Ten Animal form as done in our branch, this is a Siu Lam form with only some overlap in Ng Ying Kuen.
The questions of your last sentences are very nice reflects, which I do not know. If you look to legend then Gee Sim had three famous students; also Lok Ah Choy. All three learned slightly different things. How come? Gee Sim was a Siu lam monk, and who knows was so inventive to create skills? That's if he ever exist? Many variations are possible. The fact that it triggers the mind is okay and reflects your eagerness/ dedication.
Mui Fa Sau is a skill integrated in Fu Hoc Seung Ying Kuen, and in fact in other systems as well. Maybe I will attach the skill in pictures this week, nice to see.....
Tze Hou, these answers are seen through my glasses, maybe you will hear in the future other thoughts. Doesn't matter because you will create finally your opwn believes and impressions of tradition. This is good, and should be the path you walk.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by essence on Dec 27, 2004 5:03:29 GMT -5
Good day Evert.
I see, so the origin of the art, namely Gee Sim, was probably a master of many systems and thus imparted different things to different people?
Mui Fa seems, today, to have become a rather integral part of Hung Gar, with Mui Fa Kuen being a Sam Chien of sorts and Mui Fa Sau being integrated into Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen. I sincerely wish to learn more about Mui Fa, whether it be a sect or another system, as they seem to have been rather prominent and influential back in the day.
Evert, it is with much help from people like yourself who will aid me in finding my true path, and for that, I am grateful.
Respectfully, Tze Hou
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 27, 2004 8:35:29 GMT -5
Mui Fa Sau are the five patterns/ levels you describe with your hands. Like painting in the air (Chen Tji Sau). This patterns/ levels are known as Plum Flower Hands. There are also Plumflower steps, and this is the way you turn in Hakka styles, and if I remember it well, in Saam Tzien forms too. Below an extraction out of one of my presentations: Warm regards, Evert.
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Post by essence on Dec 27, 2004 15:46:46 GMT -5
Good day Evert.
Ah, so what I have been doing as part of Dragon is Mui Fa Sau. Something which I have been doing but do not know about, thank you for sharing that picture which cleared up everything for me.
The only difference is that I do One Finger Controls the Middle Kingdom as a Dan Tji Kiu, maybe a palm is an alternative?
Gratefully, Tze Hou
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Hungfist
Full Member
...gotta launder my Karma.
Posts: 120
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Post by Hungfist on Dec 29, 2004 13:20:13 GMT -5
Is there somewhere to see more of this?
Thanks
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Post by Nataraya on Dec 29, 2004 14:50:04 GMT -5
Dear Hungfist,
The slide is one out of a presentation of more then 46. It is a huge file because it contains text, pictures and clips. Even then it is just a reminder for me, so that I can add more information action and explanantion to it. Let's say - a guideline for my lectures I gave in Hong Kong, UK and California.
Coincidence that tze Hou did asked about Mui Fa Sau. First I wanted to scan pictures from a book, and then I thought about one of my presentations. As you look closer to the picture you notice facial expression and then you can add sound to it, so its not from Fu Hoc, but from TSK. Mui Fa Sau is added in the 1900's to Fu Hoc by WFH. Mui Fa Sau is a very old skill!
Mui Fa Sau is Lau Kiu which means that the energy is spread over the five pedals of the action. Five short explosive exhalations, ot maybe I must say "five bullets", or as a colleague said "Five hits of the Plum Blossom buds [along the branch]. Then you start gathering again, this time in the Kiu Sau.
The next nine slides are about every leave, its keyword, principle and possible application/ variation. Also the drill that comes along with Mui Fa Sau which practice proper rooting.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by Nataraya on Jan 1, 2005 9:11:17 GMT -5
18 Lo hand hands/ practice is a skill found in many systems. For instance old Kuen Pu in Northern Praying mantis have interesting descriptions about this art. I will attach a version of Qigong/ Hei Kung of Lo han Kung: Warm regrads, Evert.
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 2, 2005 9:50:43 GMT -5
Hi Evert, Remember we spoke about the "one-legged" Lohan salute. Got 2 here. #1 from Tai Sheng Pek Kua's Lost Track Monkey form. I think the name of this posture is "WeiTuo Suppressing Evil". #2 from "Crazy Lohan" form. This form is done in "Dao Pai". I got another done by Hung Fut and plus the one I do in my Lotus form, we got 4.
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 2, 2005 20:49:43 GMT -5
Some more “embedded” techniques except that this time the techniques are credited accordingly. I am talking about 5 Ancestors Kung Fu and below is a page scanned from one of my old magazines displaying the key styles integrated into this extensive system. Starting from top left and going clockwise:- • This is a typical Shaolin Lohan technique found in many forms. Could be used against a hand or in the picture, a leg attack. Block/strike is designed to be done in one count sort of like Hsing Yi “Pao” or “Cannon” Fist. • Another popular Lohan technique. The idea to hit the inner soft tissue of the oncoming leg. The defender is not moving back but rather more to the side thus allowing the opponent’s leg to move in. In Shaolin Lohan, this technique is sometimes executed with a half-kneeling or “Riding Dragon” stance. • “White Crane Spread Wings” – No introduction required here. This is the 1 White Crane technique that spans numerous systems, including some Okinawan styles. • “Heart Piercing Kick” – here the exponent do it to the chin. Common kick used in many CKF systems. • Another “Small Lohan” technique. Evert, this is the technique that is sometimes found in some Fukien San Chiem. Usually done with swallowing and a little “turtle back”. • Beautifully executed “Tiger Tail” kick. Most times you’ll see this done with the body bent real low and hands touching the floor. Here the exponent is doing it standing up. And the picture did a good job in showing the “swinging up” of the kick and not the usual “side kick” style delivery. These folks are from a West Malaysia 5 Ancestors School.
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Post by Eric Ling on Jan 14, 2005 22:24:01 GMT -5
Hi folks, Found this old book cover in a Karate website. The technique is a CKF standard - both Northern and Southern. In Lohan, this technique is known as "General Kwan Mounting Horse". In some Chen Tai Chi, this is also the opening technique of their first form except that they do uppercut/knee - more close range.
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Post by Nataraya on Feb 4, 2005 6:52:16 GMT -5
Attached a section from our Family Lau Boxing set, the second routine. I decided to show these postures – it is extracted from the opening sequence of the form -which resembles clearly the skill of Lo Han, in this family style. Lohan emphasizes, in these postures, a solid rooting and great power, while the sections after this falls back in the typical Lau Ga characteristics as ‘spider-hands’, rather quick hand skills launched from rather high(er) stances (shrimp waist). Kindest regards, Evert.
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Post by Firehawk on Feb 5, 2005 11:38:50 GMT -5
These Mui Fa Sau hands are in Wing Chun . I find this very intresting , maybe we can do some further research on this . Robert Bayne
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Leon
New Member
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Post by Leon on Feb 8, 2005 9:54:42 GMT -5
Tiger Crane Boxing form from Hung Kuen clearly contains Lo han skills, long range techniques, as clearly can seen in the drawings below. The first skill we use to name: Monk Sounds the Bell. But in Fu Hoc it have a different name. The names are: Lohan dries its corpse in the Sun. (Luohan Shai Shi) Bian Zhang catches a tiger. ((Bian Zhuang Qing Hu) Eight Drunken Celestials. (Zui Jiu Ba Xian) LoHan comes out of the cave. (Luohan Chu Dong) The third name tend to about the Eight Immortals, which is not correctly. Warm regards, Evert. I want to know about the 2 moves on the right, are they the same move shown from front/side angles? Thanks in advance. I ask because i've learnt this move, and have always had trouble with the correct posture. I either lean too far or too little.
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Post by TenTigers on Feb 8, 2005 11:15:23 GMT -5
Hi Evert, As I recall, on the KFO boards, when I upset the applecart by suggesting the common link of the "Hakka" arts and early pre-WFH Hung Kuen-mostly that the entire short bridge sections in FHSYK and the pillar sets contained similar if not identical techniques-and of course everyone jumped all over me, you had alluded to some info you were going to one day disclose about this relationship. (How's that for a run-on sentance?)Is this true? I am currently "cross training" in SPM, and you would be amazed at the similarities. Each day, a little more is being uncovered. Each day, another epiphany. I know people always talk about the energetics and faht being different, but I STILL maintain (stubburn lil guy, ain't I) that any system that is short bridging, must develop these techniques in a similar fashion. What are your views?
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