Lohan Techniques embedded in different styles.

[Eric Ling]

Okay, as suggested by Evert, let’s start a new thread here all about Lohan techniques. I know we did a Lohan thread before but this time we are looking for Lohan techniques embedded in other styles.

Okay to kick off, I am reposting the Southern Fukien Lohan pix. These sort of double handed techniques are commonly found in Southern Tai Chor.

The first technique is called “Lohan Striking/Shooting Tiger” Evert, the Mandarin name is “Luo Han She Hu”. It is not a block and strike but rather 2 strikes done together. One to opponent’s jaw and another to the side of head.

The second technique is “Lohan Collecting Cloth” or “Luo Han Shou Bu”. This is a series of forward rolling hand done with swallowing and spitting in Tai Chor. I will post more Fukien Lohan techniques later.

[Nataraya]

Tiger Crane Boxing form from Hung Kuen clearly contains Lo han skills, long range techniques, as clearly can seen in the drawings below.

The first skill we use to name: Monk Sounds the Bell. But in Fu Hoc it have a different name. The names are:

Lohan dries its corpse in the Sun. (Luohan Shai Shi)
Bian Zhang catches a tiger. ((Bian Zhuang Qing Hu)
Eight Drunken Celestials. (Zui Jiu Ba Xian)
LoHan comes out of the cave. (Luohan Chu Dong)



The third name tend to about the Eight Immortals, which is not correctly.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Nataraya]

Another one from Fu Hoc, known as: Child paying respect to Buddha (Tongzi Bai Fo). A skill seen in many styles and systems.

The attached version is from Lohan Paat Sau or eighteen hands of LoHan.



Regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day everybody.

Evert: Aren't Drunken Eight Celestials and Lohan Comes out of Cave the same technique done on different sides? How come they have different names?

Eric: The picture that you posted, the last picture looks like Fan Kiu to me. Is this the same technique?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Tze Hou,

In fact you are correct, but the stepping pattern before -in the Lam Sai Wing branch - follows a drunken pattern. This is not done in our branch, but certainly done in the Chan Hon Chung branch. Even some schools pretend if they are drunk in that particular section.

I agree with your observations of Eric's file, it looks like Fen Gam Kiu or Dividing Golden Bridge. In that case it fits in perfectly within a opular combination as seen in Tit Sin Kuen.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Some more techniques taken out of “The Complete Shaolin Fighting Manual” published in mainland. This is a 3 sets encyclopedia covering both Northern and Southern Shaolin compiled by “Shaolin WuShu Committee” in China.

Recognize any of these techniques?

[essence]

Good day people.

The 2nd picture reminds me of Soy Long Pao Choy, although the first move does not look anything like it, the end result is the same and the practitioner ends up in the same position with the same intended result.

Evert: I am under the impression that TSK is a Siu Lam form, and I apologise if this is wrong. If so, TSK and GGFFK would be the 2 Siu Lam forms we have in Hung Gar and this would form the core of our Lohan skills correct?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Tze Hou,

There are a few characteristics of TSK. The most important one is that it is [IMHO] not about fighting. It is about power generation, or more popular said "the drive".

What do you see? 1) that the form is NOT about aesthetic 2) limited footwork 3) weird facial expressions supported by 17 sounds. 4) moments of extreme explosions and momentys of deep contemplation. and finally (at the end) a heavy sweating person - not out of breath - whom will not talk after peformance.

Siu Lam yes/ no? Oral tradition (and some books) state that the form was taught to Leung Kwan (Tit Kiu Sam) by Kwok Yan Sim Si. Some books refer that he was an abot of Putian Siu lam Si. Statements which need to be researched. And which I do NOT take as a fact.

I prefer to look to the ingredients closer and make relations to common arts. To be honest, in my research the art of Iron Wire Boxing is getting shape. To be honest more and more shape. Thanks to my contacts with Eric and Martin, AND thanks to Russ, the picture is getting more clear.

I do realize that such kind of research could not habe done 30 years ago. But the enormous amount of clips and interaction, did lead to a huge flow of observation. THis with help of my professionsl background, helps me in identifying the art much closer.

If I feel not sure about my observations I always can reflect these thoughts to close friends, which will give me their view. This is extreme helpfull.

Last weekend for instance was it Martin Watts who looked closer to Fu Hoc and Tit Sin, and directly reflected that the Fu Hoc I have shown had absolutely NO connection to his Yong Chun White Crane system. But, my TSK, was a complete different story, based on the stances, the transfers and details I build up explosion.

Southern Tai Tzu (master Zu Sao Pen) is an example which keep on teasing my poor brains, truly. Further Eric keep on pointing towards ven. Sik Koh Sum (?) Mainly about the 18 Lohans and their expressions.

If I had kept myself to the little books and thoughts, then my TSK was finally related to a person in Australia, hahahahaha.

Much more work/ research to do. With the help of friends I am sure that more details will be analyzed. A beautiful path to walk, especially when baldness and grey is starting to become dominant.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

Would I be right to say that TSK leans more towards the Fukien arts than to Siu Lam in general? If you could, I would dearly love to learn more about the origins of this form as most websites I have come across portray TSK as a form taught to Tit Kiu Sam by Kwok Yam Sim Si. What have you found out regarding this form?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Tze Hou,

We are ariving at a spot in which I am learning to recognize symptoms of Siu lam Boxing and those of specific Fukien Boxing. And to be honest, I still have not a bright image of 'what is Siu lam Kuen'. Sound strnage, but I am afraid this is so. Personally I look to Lo Han actions, then I can make a relation to Siu lam.

In that case I have still problems with identification, espoecially in the field of Fukien arts. It was Eric who launched the question; "Is Saam Tzien a Siu Lam form"? A very good question, due to the ingredients which are not directly Siu lam [IMHO].

Historically it is much more clear because I do believe that Northern Siu lam Kuen CAME to Fukien first, and later spread to the economical center of the South (Canton city). I have heard much more stories about several Siu lam temples, of which the one around Yong Chun had large groups of fighters. As you can imagine, Fukien is a very good place to stay, looking to the landscape....

Over the last 100 -150 years much systems/ forms are created, not following any line of thought. For Hung Ga kuen this was around 1950, that many forms were choreographed and intergrated to broaden once curriculum. But in fact WFH did this already around 1900. Really not that special, many playerswanted to make their living and be the inventor of a succesful system.

Maybe some readers can launch their thoughts about, what identifies a typical Siu Lam system, besides the salute. Please realize that I have seen many self created forms with a Siu lam salute. But what is there, without the salute.......

Warm regards and a Marry Christmas all!

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

I see what you mean. One thing which puzzles me is that TSK was, as is commonly known, added to the Hung Gar system, and was not included in the orginial Hung Gar by Hung Hei Kwoon. However, ever since it has been added, it has become a pillar of Hung Gar, and what puzzles me is how could such a core and important form of Hung Gar not have been included by Hung Hei Kwoon?

I am also under the impression that Ng Ying and Sup Ying were Wong Fei Hong's creations, is this correct? If so, then when one has a good grasp of Hung Gar and/or Lohan, would one be able to then create a form and add it to the syllabus? Would this not dilute the system from its core intentions?

Going by this, would it be correct, to stay true to Hung Gar's roots, to concentrate on GGFFK, FHSYK and TSK, assuming these are the 3 oldest forms in Hung Gar? Would this allow the practitioner to attain the standard, to stay truer to the system, as intended by Hung Hei Kwoon? Random thoughts floating around my mind.

Warmest regards and a merry christmas to one and all,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

You are partially correct. In the beginning (1900) there was Siu Lam Fook Fu Kuen and Tit Sin Kuen. Both systems that didn’t belong to one particular system. Probably there was a Ng Ying and a Ng Hang form, containing NOT more then 50 movements or so. Over the years I have found more text explaining this vision.

It was WFH that created a system. Probably he was strongly influenced by other systems such as Tit Sin Kuen and Shadowless Kick skills.

I will explain the development as seen (roughly) through my glasses. Fook Fu Kuen is a GREAT instrument to teach students a solid foundation. Good proper rooting and solid techniques. Besides this the ‘sensation’ of doing Fook Fu Kuen after Tit Sin Kuen is wonderful. If you have such an experience, then it is clear that you want to make use of the power drive of TSK. So WFH did add TSK ingredients into GJFFK, although basic skills (such as Double sword Cutting bridge, Fen Gam Kiu, etc.)
But, the system then was predictable and lesser effective in fighting. More variation was needed, the integration of a more relaxed and evasive system. Indeed, Fu Hoc, the dodging of a Crane. In the line of his thoughts, he added Lo Han skills and TSK skills in Fu Hoc Seung Ying Kuen. His student Lam Sai Wing was a STRONG performer of this third set. So strong, that many colleagues did talk about Fu Hoc Pai. This term was even common around the early seventies. Both terms Hung Kuen and Fu Hok Pai were common terns in Kwantung.

Essential for Siu Lam Kuen are the Five Animals and Five Elements. WFH had already add the Five Element section in FHSYK, and decided to keep Ng Ying and Ng Hang as individual sets. After 1917, maybe even later (?), these sets were also combined, but now with 1/3 section of TSK. The name of the fourth pillar Ng Ying Ng Hang Kuen or simple Sap Ying Kuen. During the fifties other systems were integrated such as Mui Fa Kuen, Lau Ga Kuen, Gau Dokh Kuen, ….

A colleague once – from Singapore – sent me a text explaining the curriculum of Hung Hei Kwoen. In it was a Three Battle set (if I remember it well). I will search that text and put it as a picture, so that you can read yourself. So there have always been a kind of ‘power drive’ set!

Resume:

1) Like you I believe that GJFFK, FHSYK and TSK are the three oldest forms as practiced in the WFH branch (approximately 1900).
2) If you play Fook Fu Kuen (the last section of GJFFK, after Black Tiger Steals the Heart), TSK and the Ng Hang and Ng Ying sections (from Sap Ying Kuen), you play the art as practiced before 1850 or even before that!
3) Combine this with proper Lien Kung, and you have a wonderful system based on bare hand fighting. If this suites your sensations, then it is okay.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

Thank you for explaining this to me. A very interesting point in that the original Hung Hei Kwoon's Hung Gar contained a Sam Chien, I would dearly love to read that article.

Once again, thank you so much for helping me clarify this. I will bear what you have said in mind.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

The material as presented in this letter are from scans I received from a martial friend from Singapore. Like all books, it takes some reservations. Personally I read them and keep it in mind. Maybe they are useful, sometimes not.

Interesting are two players:

1) Hung Hei Goon:

A student of HHG was Lei Tong Foon ( the inheritor of the Hung Fut system).

The curriculum of HHG was propably:

1. Saam To Kuen (Three Path Boxing)
2. Yi Lung San Tsuu ( Twin Dragons fighting for the Pearls),
3. Yeh Fu Chut Lam ( Night Tiger comes out of the Forrest),
4. Ng Ying Kuen (Five Animals Boxing),
5. Sap Ying Kuen (Ten Pattern Boxing),
6. Fu Hoc Seung Ying Kuen ( Tiger Crane Form).

2) Wong Kwan:

He was a direct student of Gee Shin, an older kungfu brother of HHG.

In his style we found elements back of:

1. Lo Han Kuen ( Lo han’s Boxing System),
2. Mui Fa Sau ( Plum Blossom Hands),
3. Sap Sei Yau (14 movement fist),
4. Ng Hang Fook Fu Kuen ( Five Element Taming the Tiger Form),

Wong Kan might be a very interesting historical figure, this because ( I believe) there is a strong link with Hakka Boxing. In previous letters we discuss this matter with Robert Hui, who started his martial carreer with Pak Mei and Dragon Boxing. Maybe Triskellin can add some information to it?

Okay, Pak mei's grandmaster Cheung Li Chang did practice with Hoy Fong Si. Thoughts are strongly linked with the idea that Hoy Fong Si - Wong Kwan. There might be a big chance that Lam Yiu kwai was also involved in this direction on Luo Fa Shan, and where thought the higher secrets of the art.

To make the circle round. Lung Ying, Yong Chun White Crane and even Pak Mei share huge overlap in skills and principles. And then suddenly - Wong Kwan in relation with Fukien arts - start to show some nice thoughts.


Sorry for the side stepping of the theme/thread, but nothing wrong to flow towards a different direction...

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

So in the original curriculum, there wasn't a GJFFK, rather, an Ng Hang Fook Fu Kuen? I know that GJFFK can be broken down into the Gung Jee part and the Fook Fu part, does this mean the Gung Jee part was added later?

Also, who was it who combined the Ng Ying Kuen with the Ng Hang Kuen? Was the Sap Ying Kuen of HHG the same as the Sap Ying that we play now (I have a feeling it is different)?

Another thing which I found very interesting was that Lohan Kuen was not part of HHG's curriculum, but was of Wong Kwan's. Although he was HHG's kung fu brother, was he involved in the creation of Hung Gar? If not, how come Lohan skills are such an integral part of Hung Gar? Is the Mui Fa Sau of Wong Kwan the same as the Mui Fa Kuen we do today, or at least, influence our Hung Gar's curriculum today?

Sorry for the many questions, but these interesting points you gave me really does provoke thought.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou