Hung Gar Techniques.

[WuWei]

Eric said:

Tze Hou,

There are a few ways to do this technique.

I've heard that Hai Di Lao Zhen can be used to actually pierce the dan tien.

[Nataraya]

This thread is alos about techniques. The words principles and concepts are found frequently back in replies, over the last weeks. Therefore I like to start analyzing a skill according to this.

Let's start looking at: “Hungry Tiger Catches the Lamb” [Ngo Fu Kam Yeung]. Look at the action and eventual application and start launching keywords related to this particular skill. This include principles of movement too! Whatever comes to mind, you can launch and we will see where it will lead to.

Look at it as music. let's say an A chord. There are several ways to play such an chord. Some like the septiem, others prefer the 'hardrock'(violence) type. While others like the classical way of touching the strings. There are some musicians between us, so they have an idea about all posible variations of such an chord, and of course the other chords around that tone. So many songs, so many styles and so many ways to touch it. Just like our martial arts. But still it is all about "A".

Please, there are NO stupid answers. Every answer have a reference and a thought behind it. There is no ULTIMATE way of launching such a skill. It is the environment and the situation, timing,.... in which such a skill is launched. A left hand opponent fights different, just like a boxer standing with the other leg in front. Aspects you need to observe and find an answer on.

Okay I start with some keywords:

Hard (Gang),
Round (Huen),
Straight (Jik),
First: Sink & swallow
Then spit & Float,
Control (Jai)

The idea is to ask questions and launch any thought.....

Warm regards,

Evert.

Note: Eric do you have an image of this skill, or do I need to send you an image?

[essence]

Good day Evert.

I apologise beforehand in case anything I say my be wrong. In my eyes, the principle of the technique is a block/breaking a hold, which can become a Chin Na technique followed by a Tiger Claw to the upper gate.

I play the Hungry Tiger Catches Lamb in 2 ways when I do the Tiger portion of Fu Hock. One method is to aim for speed, trying to execute the technique fast and maintain the integrity of the technique and the other way is to do it slow and trying to flex the muscles as hard as I can as a form of strength training.

In both ways, the factors which I find are consistent through the way I play it are Gang, Huen, Jik and Jai. Even though when I try to increase the speed, I find this technique demands a certain amount of Gang which cannot be excluded. Huen is present in the hand which circles as a block or to break a hold. Jik is present in the attacking hand which goes straight to face/throat level. Lastly, Jai is present in the blocking hand, which can become a Chin Na technique if need be. This is the way I view my Hungry Tiger Catches Lamb.

First to sink and swallow, in my humble opinion, is to allow for the generation of power and is located in the stance and the transistion to a forward stance, which explodes when moved into float and spit. This, however, has not been explained to me by my Sifu and is only my view on this technique. Would you, or anybody, be able to explain more on the sink, swallow then float and spit regarding this technique?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

A great first step, although I missed a deeper analyses which seems to be more childish to mention. I want to hear everything Tze Hou.

What about:

Hold, Intercept, Grab, Pull?

Stepping inwards (Push, Lean, Bik Bu?) or Pull and sink in the stance. What about pointing (vital spots?). So much more is going on. Try it again.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

I believe the Tiger Claw technique in itself has quite a number of applications, most of which, you have described.

The Tiger Claw could be used as a palm technique into the chin/nose and not only be used to claw the face. The fingers, I would think, would be ideal for attacking the eyes, as there is a gouging action in the Tiger Claw. Of course, the Tiger Claw is also ideal for grabbing the opponent by the hair which will set the opponent up for another technique.

I would assume Bik Bo is to "eat up" the space between you and the opponent, to force him to move, which comes from the stance transitions, or, the step taken with which to issue the technique.

Thinking further into the technique, I would say that it could be used also as a means of distraction from a real attack. The clawing of the face, whether it connects with the opponent or not, sets up an elbow technique which can be delivered into the chin or the chest area.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with a lot of the vital points of the human body. With my limited knowledge, I believe that the thumb and last finger could theoretically be aimed at squeezing the temples on the head.

I am, however, not able to think of how this technique may be used to intercept due to my limited knowledge in Hung Gar. The only thing which I can think of is the blocking hand, which sets up the other hand for an attack.

Pardon my ignorance, but I cannot think of the application which you said might be childish. Could you please explain this to me?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

I use thw rods 'childish' in the wrong context. What i try to say is that mentioning all little keywords in the action, might be childish. But in the end you will see an enormous overlap of principles back in a set/ system. It is a long path but helps you to understand the message of the ancestors. Also understanding why an action doesn't feel well. let's say; give you some insight.

That you do not know the vital spots, isnot important at all. That the fingers can be used to stimulatre vital points does. That the nerves in the arm, around the wrist and carotid artery have specific 'sensations ' are important too.

More important is to know if you go straight with 'pressure' or decide to step aside/ dodge? Maang Fu means fierce tiger, which explains the Intent. "Grabs" the sheep, explain the action, eventual of both claws. What then? bring him down while still hanging on his carotid artery, like in nature?

Okay, analyzing principles of action and movement are an instrument to understand the nature of an action/ Animal, or movement.

Where does the power comes from. What is the role of the waist in case of the power. or is it a forewheel drive or backwheel drive, in using modern technical terms.

Stepping in during an attack is "Fierce" , while stepping back and then counter attack is more "expected" and maybe more controlled. I was trying to show a method of analyzing one posture and bring it back to a view keywords. Then look closely to the Kum la aspect and ask yourself" How would a seizing look like. What am I doing and what's the result. Do I kill, or have fun with my victum? It's all there..........

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

Ah my inexperience in Hung Gar begins to show. Indeed, we can draw much from the name of the technique.

Hungry Tiger Catches Lamb, this in itself would lend the practitioner a vision of how to execute the technique. A hungry tiger would never play around with its food, and as you said, we can learn from nature bringing down the prey for the kill. Thinking back now, the fingers are in the optimal position to capitalise on the carotid and jugular to cause unconsciousness and/or death.

One question is, I do not understand how the vital points in the wrist comes into effect here when you mentioned that they have special sensations.

In my view, again, the waist comes into the generation of power when the person turns into a forward stance. When a person faces the same direction and issues the technique, a step forward would generate the power, coming from the rear leg with the front leg following. I think that this puts more "spring" or shock into the technique in order to first palm the throat choking the opponent before applying the Chin Na onto the arm and neck.

As for stepping in or yielding the space, I view this as a Yin Yang principle, to smash or to give in. I believe the essence of Tiger is Yang and thus, the technique wants the practitioner to "eat up" the space to the opponent thus, an attack is countered with another attack. In this aspect, I suppose Gang is very important, as this is the first principle needed to ensure the execution of the form which will then lead to the other keywords you mentioned flowing out of the technique.

Indeed, I have seen this choke hold applied so many times it should have occured naturally to me, I guess this is my failing and I thank you for opening my eyes.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Good reply Tze Hou, it is a way of thinking and analyzing to a more details. I am pleased to see that this make you thinking, AND still you keep the big picture in mind. This is important.

One little thing more. We are talking about Tiger. But in this case you can not directly make the relation with Yang, which I understand [muscular strength (Lik)]. Tiger skills as VERY solid and the Tiger is the King of the Earth (Yin), as you see this can bring questions to the surface. But in previous replies we did talk about this Yin - Yang philosophy and the constant changing nature.

Okay, although the Tiger have a very strong focus, its nature is force. Look - and I still find it CRAZY (really), that during attacking his prey, he neglects victims very close to him. He past them easily but keep on hunting for his focus. Okay, that's nature and a thing we must keep in mind. Practically - I mean in relation to the Kum La (and more the vital spots), he will go for the centerline, which covers the 'ultimate Yin'. As you might know this is the presentation of the most vital and important energy of the body.

I think it is time for you to pick up an anatomie book, not directly an acupuncture map, no simply a book in which the nerves and bloodvessels are shown well. Then play around with hold and grabs, and notice where your fingers are. That's all.

Later you will learn that the vital spots will be divided in three groups. Hand/ feet + Forearms/ shins , upperarms/ legs and trunk. Then your teacher might start working on this. Most of the Kum la books show you simple maps. Just keep that in mind.

Hakka styles LOVES this, I am afaraid that I can not speak about Fukien styles. Others might give you an answer for that.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

I have been taught that the body's most vital points lie along the centreline of the body, is this what you meant? This centreline that we speak of is the route of travel for our Chi is it not? Thus, making it the presentation of the most vital and important energy in our body.

Indeed, from many documentaries, the tiger ignores many other preys and its focus and intent are concentrated on the one prey he has selected. I gather that this points to should be our intent and focus on the execution of the technique upon our opponent.

I find it very interesting that the Tiger is considered Yin. Would you say the technique is of a Yin or Yang essence? To me, if Tiger is Yin and the method is Yang, then, would this technique be considered complete?

I will look for an anatomy book as soon as possible. I have a great thirst for the knowledge of vital points as well, as I feel it is an important aspect of the traditional arts.

To further this discussion, would this technique seek to seal the Chi, or the cut the Chi?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Correct, the acupuncture term for this meridian is: Ren Mai.

When a Tiger catched its prey, you will see that he is hanging still on the throat with his full weight, and let the victim struggle till he is tired. Then he make a pulling action and head directly towards the organs. Sometimes the prey is still alive while eating the organs....

If the stage was Yang, then you will see a cat playing with a mouse. Even then the cat sometimes observe carefully for a minute before playing again.

For me the Dragon that constantly move and swimming amongst the clouds (and water) is a good representation of hyper activity of movement. Yang, constantly turning and moving. The Tiger is the King of the Earth (Yin) and have the power of an earthquake when there is contact...

Nothing is absolute and ultimate. So there might be other theories per region, school or branch. I just want to explain the way it is understood in our branch.

Seal the Qi:

What is your Intent? Destruct the trachea (windpipe), or to rip the Carotid artery directly? I guess it is the first option, which mean Daed within a few minutes. That's the Tiger, hardly any subtle techniques. Rough power to the throat, finito.

Carotid artery is nice to play with and can be touched with a minimal force, depending what you want. With a 100 gram of pressure you bcan stimulate the baro receptors of a specific spot. Meaning a spontaneous death action. But that's not the fact. After 45 seconds the person will be awaken again. These baro receptors have a direct influence on the beating nerve/ center. This will be [ momentary] paralysed, so no beats at all. According to the medical books, after 45 seconds it starts beating again..........

With lesser precision and a little bit more pressure, you can touch the T junction with more power. Then the change that your oponent get a TIA or CVA is BIG. Meaning a stroke in common terms. Normally presented in a hemi plegia aspect, so fighting can't be done anymore.

Okay, I showed you three presentations what an attack to the throat area can do. Pressure will be between 100 gram up to the raw Tiger strength of 100kg. Of course there is much more in relation with angle and localisation. But that's my friend, is not i the power of the Tiger skills.

Enjoy your weekend,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

The 2 ways you have mentioned, would it be correct to split this again into Yin and Yang Tiger? Yin being the more gentle and direct, 100gms of pressure and Yang being the explosive and destructive 100kgs of pressure?

The view that you have painted, a tiger holding onto its prey while waiting for it to tire, gives me another view on this technique. When we do our Tiger portion of Fu Hoc, we keep our hands formed as Tiger Claws all the time, even when executing a block or after the technique has been finished and we are returning the hand to its position beside the hips. I gather this is to teach us to "drag" our opponent down and away from us as the Tiger would drag its prey down.

At the risk of generalisation, would you say brute force plays much of a role in the skills of a Tiger? More so than angle and localisation? If so, would an attack directed as it was meant with a Tiger technique do its job even though we missed the exact spot? Example, you aim for the carotid, but your fingertips miss the artery, would applying a crushing force through the fingers still achieve the same results?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

It is a way to describe things. A martial Yong Chun White Crane friend of us (Martin) brought a poem with him. In it were the translation of: " Manifest the strength of the Tiger and the Wolf". Here you have the Yin & Yang split. A Tiger keep on hanging waiting that his prey fall down of tiredness. The Wolf will rupture his victum in thousand pieces by the power of his jaws and neck, which is ABSOLUTELY Yang manifestation. A tiger is much more controlled and goes from their directly to the vital (Yin) organs. The wold will bite you in hundreds pieces in an hyper active action.

Tigerclaw is first the penetrating palm, that will destroy the windpipe, then the claws comes into presentation in a pulling action. So, spitting action is the palm (jeung) swallowing action is the claw (jau).

I think Tze Hou, you have a rather clear picture on it all. My compliments.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Folks,

Some Crane techniques from Eric Lee's 5 Animals system.

Don't think it's Hung Gar but more Shaolin 5 Animals. I think I've seen this kind of "wing hands" in Choy Li Fut.

In Fukien systems, this stretched hand techniques are found mainly in "Long Limb" Crane or sometimes in "Flying Crane".

[Nataraya]

Eric,

Painfull to see, absolutely NOT Hung Kuen or Southern Lam Kuen. Look very Northern and maybe linked with modern Wushu.

Eric Lee is/ was a showman. I have seen forms from him which are very close to modern Wushu. Same counts for his books on the Daan Do (broadsword). Personally I do not like his way of doing the art, but must convince that he stimulate the American scene - in the seventies - very good. For that he recieve much respect.

Regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Nataraya said:

Eric,

Painfull to see, absolutely NOT Hung Kuen or Southern Lam Kuen. Look very Northern and maybe linked with modern Wushu.

Eric Lee is/ was a showman. I have seen forms from him which are very close to modern Wushu. Same counts for his books on the Daan Do (broadsword). Personally I do not like his way of doing the art, but must convince that he stimulate the American scene - in the seventies - very good. For that he recieve much respect.

Regards,

Evert.

Man, there is no pleasing you hahahaha. The delivery/costume might look Wushu but the essence of the technique is still crane-nish.

Eric Lee started out in "Won Hup Kuen" and this is like a breakaway from "Kajukenbo"

And if I understand the history right, Siu Lam was a component of "Kajukenbo".

He did turn somewhat Wushu along the way. Why - got to ask him.

I think the "Oldragon" knows him. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D