Hung Gar Techniques.

[Nataraya]

Eric,

man you have no idea about Westerners and creating original names for styles. A shame man!

Kajukenbo:

Ka-rate
Ju-do
Ken-po
Bo-jutsu.

Where do you see the Siu lam then?

And what about the Crane. I am afraid that you passed the standard percentage at the moment of Carlsberg, hahahahaha.

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Nataraya said:

Eric,

man you have no idea about Westerners and creating original names for styles. A shame man!

Kajukenbo:

Ka-rate
Ju-do
Ken-po
Bo-jutsu.

Where do you see the Siu lam then?

And what about the Crane. I am afraid that you passed the standard percentage at the moment of Carlsberg, hahahahaha.

Evert.

Arrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!

Ken-po is from the late William Chow. Chow was a Siu Lam Sifu in Hawaii who also taught the late Ed Parker.

Look at the way Ed Parker's system salutes - the typical Ming Salute my crazzzzzy friend!!

[Nataraya]

Okay Eic I need to walk a different path (I think). Have you seen decendants of William Chow showing their arts? Or have you seen Kenpo stylists seen doing Fu Hoc Seung Ying Kuen. Okay, I will give you another example Wai Hong and his Fu Jow Pai group. very easy to label Siu Lam to it.

I have footages of both groups and it is fair to mention this as Siu Lam.

I am afraid that I need to jump in past tense to give a glimpse of the development of martial arts in the West. Hopefully this is NOT necessary. Therefore I like to keep it simple. Due to the political situation, and the popularity of martial arts in the fifties- sixties andseventies, that the Chinese did waste there arts (already). 99% of the Chinese artist thought to take a penny out of the Wong Fei Hung rage, and then the Bruce lee fashion, Shaw brothers, Sammo Hung, Jacky Chan, Jet Li... And on and on.

Bad Chinese teachers - that hardly good make a fist - jump over and started to teach. Mixing the fist and kick, with everything what they could get, and sell it in the West for big money. No tradition, money was there main goal. With the result that many Westerners need to open school and give the money to their teachers, so that they become more richer. The UK scene is still such a nice example nowadays. With that money they ran to Hong Kong, Taiwan, and later mainland China - to buy more forms. I am sure you know about the shopping in Fuzhou. Soon it wil be Yong Chun that will be spoiled with dollars........

The names mentioned in this letter contains one of the first that found their path in BIG America. And indeed they became BIG man with loads of descendants. But Ed Parker, a very important man around Chow, wasn't hap[py with the few skills, and develop hundreds more. A never ending story.

So, Eric Lee was a technical man, Chinese looking. So it MUST be good (hah!).

This is not new, but the mechanism behind it. Thank God there are a few that keep tradition, and stay in the shadow. These man treasured their art, and keep iot away from the scene. But Eric, you know how small the edge is. Ron Goninan is in this case my direction of thought.

Can we bann this? No, we can not! Even in this little forum there are visitors/ members which will sooner or later, be victum of the BIG man. Respect - with the hidden wish to become important - from those who think they are BIG, is just a nice attention. Many will feel like a child in a candy store, and will go with the flow..... Okay enough about this mechanism, but every serious dediacted practitioner, now it is around there. It's up to you to become part of such a path.

This doesn't mean that we do not face these people, we absolutely will. The question is; can you treasure the knowledge of the ancients? How far goes your respect. What does an 'oath' mean to you. Can you discriminate a fraud from a serious practitioner? Many snakes out there, believe me!

Hope I gave you a glimpse of a COMPLEX mechanism that spoils the art.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Evert,

Remember we spoke about Malaysia's Sifu Wong Kiew Kit?

I got an article here that talks about his "Siu Lam Fa Kuen". I know he is "Siu Lum" and "Hung Gar" but cannot really place his "Fa Kuen".

Did you talk to him like I suggested?

This is one of his Fa Kuen technique:- The sequence is from right to left.

[Nataraya]

The techniques as showed by GM Wong Kiew Kit looks like a skill done in (Gung Ji) Fook Fu Kuen, my teacher use to call this a Double Dragon Kick.
We have three Fa Kuen's sets, and in none of these sets the three kicks are being made. I am sorry, I disagreeociation is more towards Hung Kuen then towards Flower Boxing.
The term Siu Lam Fa Kuen is rather interesting, wonder why he did add Siu Lam to the name? Because of Ng Mui? Or because Lok Ah Choy trained with Gee Shan Sim Si?

Example is rather weak, if the opponent did learn beginning lessons well enough, he would kept the elbows dropped.

No, so far I didn't make the contact yet with the Wong family, I am sure that this will happen in the near future.

Thank you for the nice pictures. Are there any remarkable things said in the text? Previous teachers, history?

Warm regrads,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Evert,

Pictures of "Village" Hung Gar?

The Sifu in the picture is from West Malaysia. In some old Hong Kong CKF magazines he was featured with his "Hung Gar". The odd thing is I don't recognize any of his techniques or forms.

Can you make anything out of this?

[essence]

Good day Eric.

If I may comment on the pictures with my limited knowledge, I do find that the techniques done are very Hung Gar in flavour, however, I am unable to pinpoint as to what Hung Gar branch this is from. What sealed off the decision for me is the Dan Tji Kiu in picture 67 for me, although picture 65 does resemble Fun Kiu to me, it could be a double punch.

Remember I said I recently ran into an elderly gentleman who is a Hung Gar exponent? He showed me some material regarding his Hung Gar and I found it extremely interesting that he had a mountain of forms within his branch. Normally, Hung Gar has 4 pillars and maybe another 3 or 4 forms to support the basics of the starting practitioner, but this gentleman had probably close to 30 forms, including weapons.

One thing I discovered while having tea and talking with him was that he regarded our basic form, Gung Jee Fook Fu Kuen as one of a pair. He said before you can learn GJFFK, you have to learn the "mother form" Sup Tji Kuen, only then can you learn and master the "son form". This is a new concept to me, maybe the people on this board will be able to shed some light on this for me?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Hi Tze Hou,

Sorry I can’t be in Singapore at this time. Otherwise, I would bring you to meet Chou Jia’s GM Lee Kam Yuen and Sifu Foong Fook Hwa.

These 2 gentlemen are literally walking encyclopedias of Cantonese Kung Fu and they are very acquainted with the Hung Gar scene in Singapore.

Sifu Foong is my wife’s Chou Jia teacher and a very close family’s friend.

Hung Gar, IMHO, is really very complex. Most of what the world has seen is Hong Kong’s Hung Gar or should I say Wong Fei Hung’s.

Most of the Hung Gar movies from Shaw Brothers in the 70s/80s came from the Liu’s family. And this is how Hung Gar got so prevalent.

But Evert will tell you WFH is just one line.

There is another line that went to Taiwan and developed independently. I think you can still find some video clips of this stream on-line – different feel albeit still Hung Gar.

Tze Hou, back about 15 years ago, there was a Sifu who taught Hung Gar in Punggol Community Center.

He called his art “Hung Kuen Do”. I spoke to him on a few occasions and was told that his is “village” style Hung Gar that is totally different from WFH’s.

Another Sifu – Chan Kean Hua was teaching Hung Gar and Lama Pak Hok in Balestier Technical School way back when I was in secondary school.

His Hung Gar is again different from the majority of Hung Gar you find in Singapore.

You mentioned Hok San; I think they are more “Sim San Lok Hup” – another way of saying Chou Jia.

“Sim San Lok Hup” means “Combination of 6 styles of Sim San (a place in Canton)”.

Chou Jia is also sometimes referred to as this.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

I find that you raise this topic at the most suitable time. Recently, I have been quite active in going to different Wui Kwoons and looking around at the different Hung Gar offered by them.

The difference is quite astounding to say the least, ranging from the basics such as how to make a fist and how to punch, to things like the opening salute. One very interesting thing is, Singapore Hung Gar holds themselves to be unique and different from Hong Kong Hung Gar.

Indeed, upon my exploration of the Hung Gar schools here, I have begun to see a very colourful martial history of Singapore. Ranging from great stories of how Kong Chow was a smelting pot of Nam Kuen, ranging from Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Chou Gar and many others to the hidden politics and the struggle for supremacy among the schools back in the 50's to 70's.

I have been blessed by having an elderly gentleman whom I happened to run into and had been doing Hung Gar since 1955 accompany me on all the occassions and talking a lot to me, showing me the underlying issues of how and why that school's practice is such. I must say, I am very reluctant to have to return to Australia next month as there is so much more to discover.

Back on topic, I have heard of Ha Say Fu Hung Gar, which is considered to be a village stream. However, yesterday I learnt of Ha San Fu Hung Gar, yet another village stream, one of which, I have never heard of before. Anyone heard of this?

Eric, I understand why you are not able to be in Singapore at this time, you have my mobile number and it is always ready to receive your call should you be free. I look forward to when you are back in town.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

essence said:

Good day Eric.

I find that you raise this topic at the most suitable time. Recently, I have been quite active in going to different Wui Kwoons and looking around at the different Hung Gar offered by them.

The difference is quite astounding to say the least, ranging from the basics such as how to make a fist and how to punch, to things like the opening salute. One very interesting thing is, Singapore Hung Gar holds themselves to be unique and different from Hong Kong Hung Gar.

Indeed, upon my exploration of the Hung Gar schools here, I have begun to see a very colourful martial history of Singapore. Ranging from great stories of how Kong Chow was a smelting pot of Nam Kuen, ranging from Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Chou Gar and many others to the hidden politics and the struggle for supremacy among the schools back in the 50's to 70's.

I have been blessed by having an elderly gentleman whom I happened to run into and had been doing Hung Gar since 1955 accompany me on all the occassions and talking a lot to me, showing me the underlying issues of how and why that school's practice is such. I must say, I am very reluctant to have to return to Australia next month as there is so much more to discover.

Back on topic, I have heard of Ha Say Fu Hung Gar, which is considered to be a village stream. However, yesterday I learnt of Ha San Fu Hung Gar, yet another village stream, one of which, I have never heard of before. Anyone heard of this?

Eric, I understand why you are not able to be in Singapore at this time, you have my mobile number and it is always ready to receive your call should you be free. I look forward to when you are back in town.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

Hey Tze Hou,

Go to Bras Brasah Complex and ask around the Chinese book shops.

Few years back, 2 books were published by the "National Pugilistics Association" detailing all the kwans and Sifus in Singapore.

Try the small shop on the first floor. Turn right as you get off the escalator and the shop is facing the restaurant. It a small shop selling kung fu books and weapons etc...

These 2 books will tell you much about Singapore Kung Fu scene.

When you are there, you might want to pop into the CD shops on the ground floor. A couple of them carry a lot of kung fu CDs from China.
But be discerning, a lot of them are WuShu - you don't want those.

Have fun in Singapore.

Eric

[Nataraya]

Tze Hou,

Ha San Fu Hung Gar? I like to know more about this system, curriculum, etceteras. Maybe it is possible to find out the Mandarin name of that village. Just for my own investigation.

I am also curious of the He Shan county was influenced by Choy Ga?

Finally, if you see some interesting books, please think of me. Money is not a problem at all, getting solid material is.

Sung Siu Bo did practice with LSW, the question is how long. Many practitioners did learn but not completen the curriculum. Ng Ying Ng hang Kuen = Sap Ying Kuen, is created much later, maybe compiled by others? Think of Lau Ga Kuen and Mui Fa kuen added at a later stage, probably the fifties. Therefore it is correct to say that Hong Kong Hung Kuen might be different then that of Singapore. But it is a fact that most followers are linked with Hong Kong and cover absolutely the highest percentage. That doesn't mean that their Hung Kuen is superior.

My personal impression is that the followers of the main stream Hung Kuen will realize more and more that there is much more. Newer generation are not sticked to the past and are willing to discuss development and additions. This is a positive development.

Keep your eyes and ears open and learn. later you have a better reference about Hung Ga Kuen worldwide.

Take care,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day everybody.

Eric: I will go to that shop you mentioned. Just as a sidenote, does that shop carry lion dance vcds? My Sifu in Australia wants some reference as he wants to start lion dance in the school. Also, would you happen to know of any place that does Chinese caligraphy? My Sifu wants a phrase done in mao bi zi, and I don't seem to know of any place that does this.

I am already enjoying my time in Singapore. During my time as a Tiong Wah member, I was not exposed to the Cantonese side of the martial world. Now that I have made some friends and they are letting me peek into this other world, I find it so amazing. One little treasure that I was given is the saying "Ge bu li kou, quan bu li sou", meaning a song never leaves the mouth, a fist never leaves the hand. So many little proverbs have been taught to me in the past few days, all treasures that the elderly gentleman has passed on to me.

Evert: The kwoon that I was referring to was Kong Chow. I was told that as the name of the place is a Wui Kwoon, and not a Wushu Kwoon, the place does not hold loyalty to one specific style. This specific Wui Kwoon was a place for Cantonese immigrants to gather and exchange information, concentrating on the opera and martial arts, and as such, many different masters of many different styles gathered there and made Kong Chow one of their regularly visited place.

Why Kong Chow leaned more towards Hung Kuen was because majority of the masters were Hung Gar players. All different styles were taught within the school, I was very surprised that they taught both the Bak Si and the Nam Si (Fut Shan Si). One real treasure that I was allowed to lift was a historical Guan Dao, the entire weapon was cast and was one solid piece of metal. I do not know what metal it is, but it is turning green due to oxidisation. I was told that the Guan Dao was actually used in combat in the past and that really intrigued me.

Heshan, or Hok Shan, is also a very interesting Wui Kwoon. They, in fact, used to teach a Northern style, if I am not mistaken, with the occassional Hung Gar or Chow Gar instructor popping in to give the place a Southern style influence. The elderly gentleman, who has affiliations with Hok Shan, explained that Hok Shan Wui Kwoon was initially a place for lion dance and martial arts made its appearance there later. Choy Gar actually had affiliations with Kong Chow, using the Wui Kwoon as a base initially before moving out to their own school.

I will speak more with the sifus in Kong Chow regarding Ha San Fu. I have not heard of this style before either. If I come across any interesting books and videos I will let you know.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[essence]

Good day people.

It is a very sad thing which I found out recently. Hung Gar in China has lost its flair and its former glory. From various sources in Singapore, many old time Hung Gar players now regard China Hung Gar as nothing more than a dance.

Kong Chow Wui Kwoon, regarded as the base for Hung Gar in Singapore, recently paid a visit to Fut Shan, in December. They toured various memorial places and visited many Hung Gar schools there, paying homage to GM Wong Fei Hong in the Fut Shan Wong Fei Hong Museum.

In the process, Kong Chow brought lions there to do their lion dance and also gave performances of their own Hung Gar. In reciprocation, the mainlanders also gave their rendition of Hung Gar. In the words of a senior member of Kong Chow, China's Hung Gar has no geng, they just flow through their actions as if it were a dance. Watching clips of the performance, it is apparent. There is no tension held in the bridges, attacks were just an outstretched arm, no effort was made to utilise waist power or stance transitions and incorporate these into their attacks.

Very sad indeed that the birthplace of kung fu has come to this stage. Those who now hold the true spirit of their style, please continue to ensure the styles hold their flavour and not allow them to become like the mainland Hung Gar.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

essence said:

Good day people.

It is a very sad thing which I found out recently. Hung Gar in China has lost its flair and its former glory. From various sources in Singapore, many old time Hung Gar players now regard China Hung Gar as nothing more than a dance.

Kong Chow Wui Kwoon, regarded as the base for Hung Gar in Singapore, recently paid a visit to Fut Shan, in December. They toured various memorial places and visited many Hung Gar schools there, paying homage to GM Wong Fei Hong in the Fut Shan Wong Fei Hong Museum.

In the process, Kong Chow brought lions there to do their lion dance and also gave performances of their own Hung Gar. In reciprocation, the mainlanders also gave their rendition of Hung Gar. In the words of a senior member of Kong Chow, China's Hung Gar has no geng, they just flow through their actions as if it were a dance. Watching clips of the performance, it is apparent. There is no tension held in the bridges, attacks were just an outstretched arm, no effort was made to utilise waist power or stance transitions and incorporate these into their attacks.

Very sad indeed that the birthplace of kung fu has come to this stage. Those who now hold the true spirit of their style, please continue to ensure the styles hold their flavour and not allow them to become like the mainland Hung Gar.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

Hi Tze Hou,

It is not just Hung Gar and this is not a recent turn of events either.

I’ve said this many times before in this and other forums, TCKF hardly exist in mainland anymore.


About 10 years ago, my Si-Hing made a trip back to Fuzhou, after the passing of my Sifu, as an attempt to re-connect with White Crane family there. He was told point blank by relatives, both his and my late Sifu’s, that he is better off looking in SE Asia and Taiwan.

My own father was in Fuzhou many times – his sisters are still there. And each time, he would try to search for his own Sifu’s descendents. Till date, he is still unable to find any.

Tze Hou, this is happening to MANY traditional styles. The communists did a fantastic job of almost completely wiping the old styles. Very few were spared!

And this is not my opinion only. Many mainlanders I’ve met are telling me the exact same thing.

So how do you explain the myriads of “traditional kung fu” that are sprouting everywhere in China now, especially Southern China?

Well, my friend, what you are witnessing now is“capitalism” at it most! Demand and supply economics at work. There is a high demand now for “traditional” kung fu and viola; mainland is supplying en mass to this demand.

You think I am kidding? Go to the CD shop I mentioned and see for yourself. Hundreds of titles on sales. Anything from Shaolin to “secret, never seen before” rare Hua San kung fu. Anything goes, literally! And they all have a “superb” demonstrator doing their forms.

After watching these for a while, you’ll start to notice that they all move kind of alike. And this is when you’ll start thinking maybe they all come from the same place of training.

Traditionally, every style has it own unique unmistakable texture.

Tremendous amount of time and effort are used to ensure that this “uniqueness” is transmitted and continued.

Evert got some nice old clips of different Hakka/Fukien and Cantonese styles in action.

And if you get a chance to watch these, you’ll understand exactly where I am coming from.

Well, at least, it is comforting to know that they are folks who are still pursuing the "old" ways.

And I am extremely pleased that many are spending time in this little forum.

Thank you all.

[Eric Ling]

Ooops, I left these out :-

If you need calligraphy done "cheap" go to Chinatown and look for sidewalks "Ah Peks". This time of the year, close to Chinese New Year, you'll find many of them operating with just a table. Some of them are very good.

And there is another Hung Gar school that you might want to try.

Go to the HDB block facing the sub-court, the one with the big "Popular" bookstore.

You'll find a "Hong Mon San" club house on the 2nd or 3rd flr.

This used to be a very old Hung Gar school in Singapore, way back when I was just a kid.

I think "Chien Xin" is still operating in Geylang but not sure where. You can drop by the "National Wushu" center and ask. I think they are still operating in their Katong Road premises - the one behind "City Plaza" in Paya Lebar.

And yes, you can find "Lion Dancing" CDs - not instructional but competition footages in most CDs shops.