Shaolin - The source of CMA ???

[Eric Ling]

Good morning folks,

I would like to revisit an old topic that Evert and I talked about in our early communications when we first met.

Got to let you know that we have contradictory views on this subject matter.

The, probably, most quoted CKF saying:-

“10,000 blossoms bloom on 1 tree and 10,000 kung fu started in Shaolin” advocates that Shaolin is the one original source of Chinese martial arts.

Do you agree?

BTW, this is the “couplet” scroll hanging in my Kung Fu school.

I guess you know my stand.

[revolusean]

Hello all, and may I say, great topic

Like anything, the truth is hidden by time. Shaolin may be where the Chinese developed Gung Fu, but Bodhidharma (Damo) supposedly came from India. If one were to subscribe to this theory, one might think that the Shaolin Temple could trace its roots there, too.
I have read contrasting view points on this subject, as there are some who believe that the Damo legends are false, or at least exaggerated. People can only rely on what they are willing to find out, whether or not its contrary to "popular opinion".

Just a thought.

[pitbull]

if people have been reading the classics you will read of people from centuries loooong before shaolin doing martial arts...one of which is zhuge liang who is noted as being a good fencer etc. people dont have to wait for damo for things to happen. on our last trip to songshan,an indian monk made some revelations about damo. which is too sensitive to even discuss here openly. less it fall on the ears of 'hao shao' kid and help fuel his imagination again. it is also recorded that zhuge liang and his friends xun shu and company would go to the mountain to meditate and do exercises(they are taoists by the way). such records and accounts litter over the entire history of china and also of other civilizations. it just so happens that china and other oriental civilizations took it to another level,incorporating mysticism etc

[essence]

Good day everybody.

My understanding is that long before Damo went to Shaolin, people were practicing martial arts. If I remember correctly, Qin Shi Huang had a breathing set which he taught his troops and this was why he was able to unite China.

I do not think the issue is when people started doing martial arts, as the Chinese have been doing it long before Damo. Personally, I think Shaolin took the practices and refined them. I think whenever people on the run sought refuge with them, the picked up a little of this and that and documented it.

I think most modern Chinese martial arts can be divided into external (Buddhist) and internal (Taoist) in general terms. Also, it is rumored Zhang San Feng was once a disciple of Shaolin, and he picked up an advanced breathing set from Shaolin which he developed into Tai Chi. Therefore, in my humble opinion, I feel that even the Taoist arts have sprouted from Shaolin.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Hungfist]

Interesting subject. I have seen sources that date the start of kung fu at 3000 BC. I also read that wrestling called Go-Ti was practiced over 5000 years ago in China and that it passed to Japan and became Sumo. It would be the first case of CMA being exported.

Supposedly Tamo came to China from India around 500 AD. So Go-Ti predates him by a thousands of years. But the question is about Shaolin - is it what he passed on to them that later became gongfu?

There is little argument that CMA came from the Shaolin temple where it was developed for centuries before it spread through SE Asia.

There is also "Six Chapters of Hand Fighting", in Han Book of Arms written by Pan Kuo in 32 AD - predating Tamo by around 500 years. I think he may have contributed, but I dont personally think he is the Sun Source of Shaolin.

[essence]

Good day Hungfist.

This is exactly my thoughts on the matter. I feel Damo did play an integral part in the evolution of Chinese martial arts to what it is today, but he did not start invent martial arts.

From what I have read, Damo introduced a set of exercises to the monks in Shaolin because they were always falling asleep during meditation due to their low levels of fitness. I personally feel that these exercises were very much influenced by yoga, which Damo would have been familiar with.

There is a theory which suggests this set later evolved into the Lohan Quan in Shaolin, but again, it is a theory. Personally, I feel Lohan Quan would have been developed independently while integrating the breathing techniques which Damo introduced.

I have been led to believe that yoga and Chinese kung fu share a very close link, since both emphasise the control of the body and the control of breathing and also places great emphasis on meditation to find your true self. I have also watched a Chinese documentary on Shaolin which talks about the Tong Zhi Gong (Virgin Skill), which places great emphasis on flexibility and the ability to contort the body. The Shaolin philosophy behind this is that the more flexible the person is, the more capable he will be in mastering kung fu, and flexibility, I believe is also an integral part of yoga.

What do you guys think? Is yoga the basis of Shaolin kung fu? If so, that would make yoga an integral part of Chinese martial arts which were spawned from Shaolin? (Tien Xia Wu Gong Chu Shaolin, All the martial arts in the world come from Shaolin). Thus, would practicing yoga enhance your martial arts and vice versa?

[konghan]

With due respect to shaolin, I donot totally believe that kung fu originated in shaolin. For me, Shaolin was the place where cma prosper & become well known.

Just like Bruce Lee, when he introduce kung fu to the world kung fu became synonymous to Bruce Lee but Bruce Lee was not the originator of kung fu.

Just like wu shu, the perception of the world is that wu shu is kung fu & that anything that is not part of wu shu i snot kung fu.

In reality, even before the birth of Shaolin there were already many martial fighters in China.

This is my humble observation.

[Eric Ling]

So I see that most of you are, in varying degrees, with the crazy Flying Dutchman on this matter.

How many cartons of Carlsberg did he offer?

But seriously, why do you think the concept of Shaolin, being the cradle of CMA, is so prevailing?

To the point that some Karate also talk about “entering the door of Shaolin” as the eventual purpose.

And please don’t tell me that this is due to David Carradine and Hong Kong movies.

Long before these, Shaolin is already talked of as the “father” of CMA.

“When there is no wind, there is no wave.”<br>
What is the wind here?

[Nataraya]

I partly connect my thoughts with Konghan. I respect Siu Lam too, but the real source was IMHO on the battlefields.

I must agree that my thoughts were changed over the years, and discussions with Northern Boxers, I faced it from a different perspective. I must convince that I have affinity with that model.

The Go-ti model was launched in Inside Kung Fu by my famous historian William CC Hu. I have collected most of his text because it is a remarkable man. From the sixties this intelectual have a unique point of view to martial arts and its Soceities. I can strongly advise to read these kind of material to create your won thoughts and models. Like technical performance of the arts, historical development never stops and little facts and statements will polish your pearl of wisdom.

Siu lam did have its impact on TCMA, absolutely, but wasn't the initiator, or inheritor of the arts. IMHO Siu Lam did contribute to the arts, but it should be seen in perspective.

Later I will come back with some interesting material cut/ paste material for the reader to digest. Information which triggered my brains.
warm regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Ooookay, let's play a silly game here.

Name me a CKF that is positively not Shaolin and I will name you one with links or claims of link with Shaolin.

We do the tally at the end and see what emerge.

Loser(s) buy the Carlsberg when we meet.

Hehehe, somethings tell me I can expect some free beers.....

;D ;D ;D

[Nataraya]

Sorry, I am a bit in a hurry now, but later a bit more. Therefore only a few system:


1: Cheng Kuen of Tai Jo (Long Fist) Tai Jo was the first Emperor of the Sung Dynasty. The Style contains big motions, exaggerating, and is very common in Taiwan
2: Tong Bei Kuen of Hong Tong (Shadow Fist/ AKA Ape Style)
3: Lam Sao Kuen of Cheng Yum. (Closing/ Locking or Barrier Hands)
4: Duen Kuen of Wong Yuen (Short Fist)
5: Ngo Mee Kuen of Ma Jiak (Ngo Mo Fist)
6: The method of Ngo Mee Shan (Monastery) – is moving like a cat, short distance striking, and is still found in the P.R. of China
7: Pak Yuen Kuen of Sheung Hong (White Ape Fist)
From this method originated the main part of the footwork and the very famous 7 Star Stepping.

RE: Pak Yuen Tong Bei seems to have different branches as well. This could be the reason that Ape Fist is mentioned twice. There is also the possibility that Tong Bei’s forms Dai Tong Bei (became Dai Fan Che?), Sui Tong Bei (became Sui Fan Che?), and Qixing (7 Stars) inspired some of the forms of 7 Stars PM. It is quite interesting that 7 Stars (the style) is said to be perhaps name after the form 7 Stars of Tong Bei. Indeed, lots of the long arm swinging motions can be found in both styles. But not commonly found in other PM styles. It is also of note that there is a form call 7 Stars (Qixing) in 7 Stars PM.

**********Two more styles outside the 18).

* Ma Ji's Close-Range Strikes Boxing is the most remarkable.

* Sun Heng's Monkey Boxing


Good luck Eric, hahahahahahaha.

[pitbull]

peho lama-pai...its buddhist but not shaolin hehehe

[Eric Ling]

Hahahaha,

The night is still young my misguided friends. Between the 2 of you, we got 11 systems. I like to argue that Tai Zhu is very influenced by Shaolin but I'll let it slide.

My list of 11:-

1. Hung Gar (hahahaha Evert)
2. Ngo Chor (ditto Pit)
3. Lohan Mun
4. Luk Hup Mun or 6 Combinations Boxing
5. Hung Fut
6. Natural School of Boxing
7. 3 Royal Canons
8. Yau Kung Mun
9. Bak Mei
10. Mi Tzong or Lost Track Boxing
11. Pek Kua

Only the tip of the Carlsberg, ooops, iceberg guys.

Free beer, free beer, free beer ( jumping up and down chanting this mantra) ;D ;D ;D

[Nataraya]

Okay Eric, I give up, you have got your Carlsberg. No problems in admitting that this will be a discussion without an end. I do not have the time for an chicken or egg discussion, because we are strongly facing to that direction.

What is Pak Mei? At least 90% of all systems have strong roots with Chung Li Chuan. What did CLC and from whom did he learn? Then you will see that he was a collector and we are talking about a hybrid system. In your list I can say the same about Yau Kung Moon, Hung Fut, and even Hung Ga Kuen. You can say: I see Lo han men, so you win. I can show you White Gibbon Tong bei, you can say "looks like Lo han", wh am I to discuss this.

More then clear is the Moslim. The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Strikes" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by [MOSLEM QI SHI QUAN] Master Meng Su. Is it 100% pure or indfluenced that last 1500 years with any little Shaolin practitioner? A discussion I do not like to enter because we will never get the answer straight.

That's why I decided to throw the towel in the ring.

Before doing this one short story about Fifth General Yang, a famous warrior who enetered Siu Lam,....... No? Okay....... Then I like to stop with the words, that the history of China is filled with many great warriors, I do not know if they all had their skills from Shaolin then? But it was on the battlefields where they had experience and skill, later it found there way to ....

What is authentic? Is any style authentic or what you state not long ago, whom of us is only affected by one style. And,...... can you tell me if your teacher practiced one style his whole life? Evolution?

If I look in the mirror, then I will be the first one to say that several systems crossed my path. Some had strong impacts on my skill, others hardly anything. Still I carry it all with me, everyday every second. Some old Siu Lam, some probably non Siu Lam.

Kind regards,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Okay Evert, we are even. No Carlsberg required.

Yes, I still think Shaolin is the one most important place as far as systemization of kung fu is concerned. Not necessary initializing but certainly organizing and propagating.

Damo left behind something – but is this Kung Fu – very hard to say. Depending on whom you talk to, you are likely to hear anything from Lohan to Yoga.

Shaolin, however, was a shelter for tired solders. Folks who honed their fighting skills in battlefields everywhere in China back then.

Some were using Shaolin as a hiding place from pursuing enemies. Your Yang General is one such example.

The Yang family had only daughters – famous, really more, for their Spear kung fu. The 5th daughter married someone who is now known as Yang Wu Lun. He acquired his spear skills from the Yang family.

The popular story is that he was hiding in Shaolin, apparently from enemies, and needed to practice his spear.

The monks objected to this and he had to remove the sharp metallic end. This, then later became the “rat tail” or tapered-end pole kung fu. A red cloth is tied to the smaller end to represent the spear head.

And your Hung Gar does this form as Wu Lun Pak Kua Koon. I have even seen the form done with the red cloth at the end.

So chicken and egg scenario again. Is “Wu Lun Pak Kua Koon” Shaolin or Yang Jia Kung fu?

So when I say Shaolin is source, I am, in fact, saying many arts came out of Shaolin. Not necessary created by Shaolin monks but “processed” in Shaolin.

So we are both right.