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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 5, 2004 9:28:56 GMT -5
Hi everybody, Got another question for all of you; how many of you pump weights and try to build muscles mass, like a body-builder, in your martial arts training? Do you think having an “Arnie” kind body helps in kung fu fighting? In school, we learn that Force = mass x acceleration, so is mass = bulky muscles? Or do you believe that bulky muscles slow you down and therefore lessen your force? I have seen some “incredible Hulk” do kung fu and they really look “weak” in spite of all that big body parts. Your comments please.
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 5, 2004 10:37:45 GMT -5
yes, it does. I know Eric that this might be an answer you did not expect for me, and therefore I give you my thoughts about it.
I attached pictures of both my Sigung and Sifu of this forum. All could have seen that they are not muscular at all. For myself, I was - in my yuoth - a topswimmer, and did some power training then. But a program that was suitable for swimming in general. After age 16 I never touched weights anymore. Nine years was more enough to create a swimmersbody.
IMHO power is connected with muscular actiivity too, but it is certainly NOT the main factor. For power explosion you need movement and relaxation. Torquing the hips and reflecting rear leg power, you need tension and muscular force (Li(k)).
To handle Geng/ Jin you need power in your muscular apparatus, to absorb explosions. I like to refer to Iron palm skill. Conditioning the hands only, will create somewhere serious problems in your physical body. Neck, shoulder, kwa, calves. The geng will find the weakest chain, unless your body is trained in handling these explosions. That's why you need daily practice of Iron palm,......
To accelerate, is also a musculare actiivity, heavily influenced by the mind. The mind is the driver, and get out a bad machine/ car, still an acceptable drive. You can have a Formule 1 car, and a bad driver, and loose the game. The truth - like the Yin Yang philosophy, hides somewhere in the middle. Both Yin and yang need to be prepared to handle the releasing power, in any kind of quality.
A different question is, do a keen fighter need that power. No ofcourse not. Do you need much power for a perfect timing? Do you need loads of muscular force to activiate a vital point, or crush the windpipe?
All answers should be clear. The first stage is the Earth stage, or Tiger stage. we practice the physical body to create proper strength and condition. from then on we are heading towards the last animal: the Dragon. Including searching for the pearls of wisdom. But, IMHO, thid doesn't mean that we stick with the Dragon. We need to practice the Tiger because the power of the mind will have the most impact on power supply.
Because the tremendous impact of the mind on the physical body, we need to practice the body more and more...........
If there is a dysbalance between mind - body, or Lik and geng, then you will notice it directly.
Finally, old masters are so wise to wait for the moment and touch the "point". But for that you need a lifetime practice........
In Hong Kong Body Builders were a nice business to make a professional school more succesful. Add Lion dancing to it, and a Die da Clinic, and you have all the ingredients to survive in an expensive citty like Hong Kong. that's, if your contacts with Secret Societies are positive too........ Just some thoughts.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by CStephens on Nov 5, 2004 17:47:12 GMT -5
how many of you pump weights and try to build muscles mass *raises hand* Me! *lowers hand* Not Me! Not all weight training regimens/styles of training are geared towards muscular hypertrophy and body-builder-style physique modifications. That is an unfortunate stereotype which keeps a great majority of martial artists from participating in this incredibly effective and beneficial training method. Indeed, one can be a good fighter without weight training. But, one will have a much more efficiently functioning machine with it. Some of the benefits of weight training include: increased bone and muscle density, increased stability and flexibility at joints, increased ability to withstand and heal from injuries, improved immune function.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 18:47:39 GMT -5
Hi everybody, Got another question for all of you; how many of you pump weights and try to build muscles mass, like a body-builder, in your martial arts training? Do you think having an “Arnie” kind body helps in kung fu fighting? In school, we learn that Force = mass x acceleration, so is mass = bulky muscles? Or do you believe that bulky muscles slow you down and therefore lessen your force? I have seen some “incredible Hulk” do kung fu and they really look “weak” in spite of all that big body parts. Your comments please. Eric ni hao I don't think the more muscles one have will have the advantage in fight. During my prime training years, my sifu always adviced me not to did body building training. It can affected the flexibility and (this might sound strange for some) weaken my cheng. In my humble view, how you know and mastered your arts is the main factor. Not because of your body size. Cheers.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 5, 2004 20:13:56 GMT -5
Eric ni hao I don't think the more muscles one have will have the advantage in fight. During my prime training years, my sifu always adviced me not to did body building training. It can affected the flexibility and (this might sound strange for some) weaken my cheng. In my humble view, how you know and mastered your arts is the main factor. Not because of your body size. Cheers. Hi Suhana, Your Sifu is wise. "Hard but not rigid, soft but not weak" is really what CKF is all about. So to train the body to the point of rigid is defintely not desired. I have no problem with working out in a gym with all the modern equipments and methods. What I don't want is a body that is "heavy" and stiff. Remember also, in CKF we also talk about:- "Speed, accuracy and deadliness". You have to be fast and accurate to be "deadly". Personally, I really want to be fast and smooth. In real fights, I go for the eyes, throat and the groin. I don't really need to be bulldozer-strong to inflict damage to those "preferred" targets. Kang Pei, my friend.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 20:29:13 GMT -5
Eric ni hao But there is one" part" that don't apply to this theory. With this "part", size is everything. You know what I meant. Kan Pei to you too Cheers.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 5, 2004 20:36:13 GMT -5
Eric ni hao But there is one" part" that don't apply to this theory. With this "part", size is everything. You know what I meant. Kan Pei to you too Cheers. Hehehe, Got a friend in Denver who like to say this:- "It is not how big but how fast you use it that matters".
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Hungfist
Full Member
...gotta launder my Karma.
Posts: 120
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Post by Hungfist on Nov 5, 2004 20:40:39 GMT -5
I see no problem with lifting to be tone and fit. I personally dont lift weights but I do natural exercises like push ups - leg lifts etc. Sitting in mah is also quite demanding when done correctly for HG. Stance work is some of the best exercise I know.
Sifu told me that doing Lau Gar Kuen with low stance is like running 3 miles - and that it should be done 10 times everyday. While modern living makes this difficult, I do try to adhere to a regimented workout schedule.
The most effective techniques I know and employ derive their power from internals and the movement of a properly done technique that shifts force and weight and movement into the target.
I feel like I am rambling.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 20:56:00 GMT -5
Hehehe, Got a friend in Denver who like to say this:- "It is not how big but how fast you use it that matters". Eric ni hao Your mate is dealing with "driller" stuff I think But if the "part" is not fully in size, it'll like when we use toothpick, or when we clean our ears. ;D
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 5, 2004 21:19:21 GMT -5
I see no problem with lifting to be tone and fit. I personally dont lift weights but I do natural exercises like push ups - leg lifts etc. Sitting in mah is also quite demanding when done correctly for HG. Stance work is some of the best exercise I know. Sifu told me that doing Lau Gar Kuen with low stance is like running 3 miles - and that it should be done 10 times everyday. While modern living makes this difficult, I do try to adhere to a regimented workout schedule. The most effective techniques I know and employ derive their power from internals and the movement of a properly done technique that shifts force and weight and movement into the target. I feel like I am rambling. Hungfist ni hao I agree, in moderation we still can train in lifting. What I prefer not to do is training like body builder. I am sure every styles got their own methods for keeping the body in shape and fit. Cheers.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 5, 2004 21:39:18 GMT -5
Eric ni hao Your mate is dealing with "driller" stuff I think But if the "part" is not fully in size, it'll like when we use toothpick, or when we clean our ears. ;D Another way of saying this in Singapore is "stirring coffee". So when you see a hot mama and you say "stirring coffee", you are saying she's been around. A bit loose, pun intended. hehehehe (better not let wife read this stuff I am writing. We are supposed to be solemn serious Kung Fu exponents.)
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Post by pitbull on Nov 5, 2004 22:47:15 GMT -5
but stiring coffee is fun!!!
just sharing..i got in a 4-5 vs 1 melee some years back...i was still big then,with biceps that can cover my fac and chest thats almost horizontal when looked from th sides...i wrestled and outpwered them but i got pretty much beaten bec i was too slow and voila! my punches are connecting but not doing any serious damage...this is what happens when u pupm up too much and forget about things like speed and flexibility...sure you will look giid but its not a good body to be bashing thugs in the street...after that,i NEVER look back at doing heavy wgt training again...all i do now liftinglite wgts and doing it numerous times..experience has tougt me much
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 6, 2004 4:31:15 GMT -5
Another way of saying this in Singapore is "stirring coffee". So when you see a hot mama and you say "stirring coffee", you are saying she's been around. A bit loose, pun intended. hehehehe (better not let wife read this stuff I am writing. We are supposed to be solemn serious Kung Fu exponents.) Eric ni hao Don't worry lah friend, we are truly solemn Kungfu exponents. Your (or our?) secret is safe with me New vocabulary for me, "stirring coffee." ;D ;D ;D So it depends on the "coffee" or the "stirrer?" Cheers.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 6, 2004 4:33:00 GMT -5
but stiring coffee is fun!!! just sharing..i got in a 4-5 vs 1 melee some years back...i was still big then,with biceps that can cover my fac and chest thats almost horizontal when looked from th sides...i wrestled and outpwered them but i got pretty much beaten bec i was too slow and voila! my punches are connecting but not doing any serious damage...this is what happens when u pupm up too much and forget about things like speed and flexibility...sure you will look giid but its not a good body to be bashing thugs in the street...after that,i NEVER look back at doing heavy wgt training again...all i do now liftinglite wgts and doing it numerous times..experience has tougt me much Pitbull ni hao At that time, you must be Mr. Manila? What size is your chest? ;D
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Post by essence on Nov 6, 2004 6:55:53 GMT -5
Good day everybody.
I believe a good balance is the key. Size is not the be all and end all, in fact I think being overly big is a restriction and will have necessary consequences.
A quote from a good friend of mine: "It does not matter what style you practice, at the end of the day, if both fighters are equally skilled, the fastest and more aggressive fighter will win."
I, in my humble opinion, believe this to be true. Bruce Lee was such a good fighter and many who saw him will first comment on his speed. The ability to get in there, deliver the hit and retreat fast is paramount to winning.
That said, I was once of the opinion that size does matter, the ability to smash things when necessary is important. However, now, I believe that speed is more important as speed is the factor which determines who gets more hits in, all things being equal.
My Hung Gar Sifu is also of the thought that speed and flexibility is much more important than mass and power. He likens many of our snake and crane attacks to be like that of a whip, something which you will lose if you concentrate too much on strength. He believes this whipping power is important to deliver attacks internally, instead of a superficial, physical hit.
My Sifu has also told me, you need speed also to penetrate internally with other techniques such as a normal punch. I have been taught that the first hit is to open up the area, so that the defense would be down and thus, make the internal area more vulnerable. The second hit, which should follow the first as soon as possible, would then be able to penetrate through internally.
Any thoughts on this?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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