Cantonese / Fukien Kung Fu

[Eric Ling]

I am, for the most part, a Fukien/Fuzhou Kung Fu practitioner.

My interest also extends into Cantonese styles.

The main Cantonese Hong, Lau, Choy, Li and Mok Gar Kuen all appear to be of the same genre in terms of movements and expressions – same flavor so to speak.

But there are Cantonese styles that look “Fukien” to me. Styles such as:-

1. Southern Praying Mantis
2. Lung Ying Kuen
3. Bak Mei
4. and certain streams of Wing Chun like Pan Nam and Nanyang Wing Chun


Anybody else share the same perception?

[Nataraya]

I believe that many Cantonese systems had their roots in Fukien. Geographically and economically there were strong reasons to be in Fukien and travel to Canton city. And so did the martial arts. Kwantung province was the place to earn money. It was the place where there was work as a bodyguard, and to open schools. Old tradition did create an environment in which the best martial artist stayed.

Evolution is another trademark of Cantonese Boxing. Styles did change per generation in which the strong points was being held. On the other hand we must be aware that – the last 150 years – many disasters happened in China. Looking back to the influence of the 20th century politics on traditional martial arts on mainland, and you have an imagination how everything became of what it is nowadays.

Styles with sold names, such as Yip Man Wing Chun, Wong Fei Hung Hung Kuen, etceteras, became the most popular styles in the world. But did these two Cantonese grandmasters did transmit the knowledge of the ancients the way it should be? Or did both artist created a new way of looking to the arts? More and more it become clear that the last statement is correct. Personal interpretation. Is this incorrect? No, it is not. In a practical way these styles did proof themselves. Very effective during a conflict.

For the scholar and researcher under us, might realize that much of our forms do have a Fukien influence. I found out that probably several of the systems we have in our curriculum, are of Fukien origin. Insiders know that Iron Wire Boxing was the “source” that Wong Fei Hung used for his system known as “Hung Kuen” today.

A colleague of my told me that our Flower Boxing (Southern version) are related to Yong Chun, and to White Crane. Our (Siu Lam) Wing Chun Kuen might have very strong links with Wing Chun too? In our case I can say that our style is DIFFERENT then Yip man’s version, surely that of form and power execution/ generation.

Warm regards,

[Eric Ling]

I think with Wing Chun (Cantonese) and Eng Choon (Fukien) the case of direct co-relation is persuasive.

Could it pure chance that both the art and the name of the place Chi Niang taught her cranework turn out to be identical? Fukien White Crane is more commonly known as Eng Choon White Crane.

Going deeper, if we were to examine Wing Chun and White Crane, are there parallels – in techniques and principles?

I have heard arguments that Yip Man’s Wing Chun is far from White Crane – I have to concede based on what they do now. But then, your position on how Yip Man’s Wing Chun is transmitted might be at work here.

If we view the other streams of Wing Chun, yours and Pang Nam’s Wing Chun perhaps, the White Crane roots becomes more discernible.

I have not seen your Siu Lum Wing Chun but I have, on many occasions, witnessed Pang Nam’s and as a White Crane student I got to say the similarities is astonishing.

Not only in forms expression but also in the principles behind the techniques application.

I know of another style of Wing Chun, sometimes known as NanYang Wing Chun – the resemblance to White Crane is even clearer.

Instead of doing 3 forms, they just do one long form.

[Seeker]

Note: My Wing Chun family (Yip Man through Duncan Leung) uses the three forms merged into one in the latter, more advanced stages of training.

I have noted distinct differences between Yip Man Wing Chun and Fu Zhou White Crane, though I would say that these differences are largely superficial. There are innumerable hands and principles which are nearly identical.

It is very clear to me that Yip Man Wing Chun is a direct off-shoot of White Crane -- perhaps by as few as six generations.

My theory is that Wing Chun's "founder" (be it the mythical Ng Mui or Wing Chun) was a White Crane practitioner who decided to simplify and streamline the art for whatever reason.

Just my humble opinion....

[Nataraya]

Below a basic list of Fukien styles:

1. He Quan Crane Boxing Styles *
2. Long Quan (Green) Dragon Boxing
3. Hu Quan Tiger Boxing
4. Gou Quan Dog Boxing
5. Luo Han Quan Arhat Boxing *
6. Mei Hua Quan Plumbloosom Style *
7. (Jin) Shi Quan (Golden) Lion Boxing
8. (Gong) Ji Quan thingy Boxing
9. Nu Ren Quan Lady Motions Boxing
10. Xie Quan Crab Style Boxing
11. Ru Quan Scholar Boxing
12. Yu Men Fa Fish Style
13. Niu Quan Cow Style
14. Hou Quan Monkey Boxing
15. Liu He Men Six Harmony Boxing
16. Zi Ran Men Natural Style
17. Niao Ji Men Bird Motions Style
18. Wu Xing Quan Five Pattern Boxing
19. Wu Zu Quan Five Ancestor Fist
20. Tai Zu Quan Great Ancestor Fist
21. She Quan Snake Boxing
22. Xiang Xing Quan Pictographic Boxing
23. Xiang Dian Men Incense Shop Boxing
24. Ba Gua Zhang Eight Diagram Boxing
25. Tai Ji Quan All Tai Ji Styles.

[Nataraya]

Some Kwantung province styles:

1. Hong (Jia) Quan: Hung (Ga) Kuen, Hung’s Family Fist.
2. Liu (Jia) Quan: Lau (Ga) Kuen, Lau’s Family Fist.
3. Cai (Jia) Quan: Choy (Ga) Kuen, Choy’s Family Fist.
4. Li (Jia) Quan: Lee (Ga) Kuen, Lee’s Family Fist.
5. Mo (Jia) Quan: Mok (Ga) Kuen, Mok’s Family Fist.
6. Cai Li Fo Quan: Choy Lee Fut Kuen, Three Family Style.
7. Hong Fo Quan: Hung Fut Kuen, Hung- Fut combination style.
8. Xia Quan: Haap Kuen, Chivalrous Fist.
9. Yong Chun Quan: Wing Tsun Kuen, Everlasting Spring System.
10. He Quan: (Baaht) Hok (Ying) Kuen, (White) Crane Boxing.
11. Bai Mei Quan: Pack Mee Kuen, White Eyebrow System.
12. Hu He Shuang Xing Quan: Fu Hok “Pai” Tiger- Crane School.
13. Long Xing Quan: Lung Ying Kuen, Dragon pattern boxing.
14. Nan Zhi Quan: Nam Ji Kuen Southern Branch System.
15. (Shaolin) Fu Hu Quan: (Siu Lam) Fook Fu Kuen, Taming Tiger boxing System.
16. Wu Xing Quan: Ng Ying Kuen, Five Pattern * Boxing.
17. Shi Xing Quan: Sap Ying Kuen, Ten Pattern * Boxing.
18. Hou Quan: How Kuen, Monkey Boxing.
19. Xiao Mei Hua Quan: Siu Mooi Fa Kuen, Small frame Plumflower boxing system.
20. Diao Jia Jiao: Tiao Ga Kao, Tiao’s Family School.
21. Yue Jia Jiao: Ngok Ga Kao, (general) Ngok’s System.
22. Li Jia Jiao: Lee Ga Kao, Lee’s Family School.
23. Zhong Jia Jiao: Jung Ga Kao, Jung’s Family School.
24. Zhu Jia Jiao: Chu Ga Kao, Chu Ga (Tong Long) style.
25. Shaolin Quan: Siu Lam Kuen, Shaolin Boxing System.
26. Tang Lang Quan: Tong Long Kuen, Praying Mantis Style.
27. Luo Han Quan: Lo Han Kuen, Lo Han * Boxing Style
28. Zui Ba Xian Quan: Choi Pa Hsien Kuen, 8 Drunken Immortal Boxing
29. Cha Quan: Chaap Kuen, Chaap’s Sytem.
30. Ying Zhao Quan: Ying Jow Kuen, Eagle Claw Style.
31. Tzooi Kuen, Tzooi’s Boxing System.
32. Qing Long Quan: Cheng Lung Kuen, Green Dragon Style.
33. Jin Gong Quan: Gam Gong Kuen, ‘Diamond’ Style.
34. Hei Hu Quan: Hak Fu Kuen, Black Tiger School.
35. Lian Shou Quan: Lihn Sau Kuen, Drilling Hands School.
36. Lian Bu Quan: Lihn Pu Kuen, Drilling Stance School.
37. Tai Xu Quan: Taai Heu Kuen, ‘Universe’ Fist Style.
38. Wu Zu Quan: Ng Tzo Kuen, Five Ancestor Fist.
39. Xi Ping Quan: Sei Ping Kuen, Four Level System.
40. Wu Hu Quan: Ng Fu Kuen, Five Tiger Boxing System.
41. Yue Dai San Shou: Ngok’ Doih Saan Sau, Family Ngok’s Sparring System.
42. Yue Jia Quan: Ngok Ga Kuen, Family Ngok’s Style.
43. Tian Gang Quan: Tien Gong Kuen, Big Dipper Style.
44. Shi Zi Shou Quan: Sap Ji Sau Kuen, Crossform Hand System.
45. Shi Zi Dan Quan: Sap Ji Daan Kuen, Crossform Single Fist Style.
46. Mei Hua Zhuang: Mooi Fa Jong, Plum Blossom Stake System.
47. Long Men Quan: Lung Moon Kuen, Dragon School Boxing.
48. Tie Xian Quan: Tit Sin Kuen, Iron Wire Fist Method.
49. Wu Jia Quan: Wu Ga Kuen, Family Wu’s Boxing School.
50. Yu Quan: Yuh Kuen, Family Yuh Boxing System.
51. Da Mei Hua Quan: Taai Mooi Fa Kuen, Big Frame Plumblossem Style.

[Nataraya]

Once I did translate this list from a Wushu book: Nam Quan. It gave me a nice summation of styles. Most of them I heard never before, and I am sure that there are many other styles and variaties.

Hope that this give a nice impression of what is going on in these two regions.

Warm regards,

[Eric Ling]

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhh !

So many styles and so little time !!!!!

[konghan]

Nataraya said:

Some Kwantung province styles:

1. Hong (Jia) Quan: Hung (Ga) Kuen, Hung’s Family Fist.
2. Liu (Jia) Quan: Lau (Ga) Kuen, Lau’s Family Fist.
3. Cai (Jia) Quan: Choy (Ga) Kuen, Choy’s Family Fist.
4. Li (Jia) Quan: Lee (Ga) Kuen, Lee’s Family Fist.
5. Mo (Jia) Quan: Mok (Ga) Kuen, Mok’s Family Fist.
6. Cai Li Fo Quan: Choy Lee Fut Kuen, Three Family Style.
7. Hong Fo Quan: Hung Fut Kuen, Hung- Fut combination style.
8. Xia Quan: Haap Kuen, Chivalrous Fist.
9. Yong Chun Quan: Wing Tsun Kuen, Everlasting Spring System.
10. He Quan: (Baaht) Hok (Ying) Kuen, (White) Crane Boxing.
11. Bai Mei Quan: Pack Mee Kuen, White Eyebrow System.
12. Hu He Shuang Xing Quan: Fu Hok “Pai” Tiger- Crane School.
13. Long Xing Quan: Lung Ying Kuen, Dragon pattern boxing.
14. Nan Zhi Quan: Nam Ji Kuen Southern Branch System.
15. (Shaolin) Fu Hu Quan: (Siu Lam) Fook Fu Kuen, Taming Tiger boxing System.
16. Wu Xing Quan: Ng Ying Kuen, Five Pattern * Boxing.
17. Shi Xing Quan: Sap Ying Kuen, Ten Pattern * Boxing.
18. Hou Quan: How Kuen, Monkey Boxing.
19. Xiao Mei Hua Quan: Siu Mooi Fa Kuen, Small frame Plumflower boxing system.
20. Diao Jia Jiao: Tiao Ga Kao, Tiao’s Family School.
21. Yue Jia Jiao: Ngok Ga Kao, (general) Ngok’s System.
22. Li Jia Jiao: Lee Ga Kao, Lee’s Family School.
23. Zhong Jia Jiao: Jung Ga Kao, Jung’s Family School.
24. Zhu Jia Jiao: Chu Ga Kao, Chu Ga (Tong Long) style.
25. Shaolin Quan: Siu Lam Kuen, Shaolin Boxing System.
26. Tang Lang Quan: Tong Long Kuen, Praying Mantis Style.
27. Luo Han Quan: Lo Han Kuen, Lo Han * Boxing Style
28. Zui Ba Xian Quan: Choi Pa Hsien Kuen, 8 Drunken Immortal Boxing
29. Cha Quan: Chaap Kuen, Chaap’s Sytem.
30. Ying Zhao Quan: Ying Jow Kuen, Eagle Claw Style.
31. Tzooi Kuen, Tzooi’s Boxing System.
32. Qing Long Quan: Cheng Lung Kuen, Green Dragon Style.
33. Jin Gong Quan: Gam Gong Kuen, ‘Diamond’ Style.
34. Hei Hu Quan: Hak Fu Kuen, Black Tiger School.
35. Lian Shou Quan: Lihn Sau Kuen, Drilling Hands School.
36. Lian Bu Quan: Lihn Pu Kuen, Drilling Stance School.
37. Tai Xu Quan: Taai Heu Kuen, ‘Universe’ Fist Style.
38. Wu Zu Quan: Ng Tzo Kuen, Five Ancestor Fist.
39. Xi Ping Quan: Sei Ping Kuen, Four Level System.
40. Wu Hu Quan: Ng Fu Kuen, Five Tiger Boxing System.
41. Yue Dai San Shou: Ngok’ Doih Saan Sau, Family Ngok’s Sparring System.
42. Yue Jia Quan: Ngok Ga Kuen, Family Ngok’s Style.
43. Tian Gang Quan: Tien Gong Kuen, Big Dipper Style.
44. Shi Zi Shou Quan: Sap Ji Sau Kuen, Crossform Hand System.
45. Shi Zi Dan Quan: Sap Ji Daan Kuen, Crossform Single Fist Style.
46. Mei Hua Zhuang: Mooi Fa Jong, Plum Blossom Stake System.
47. Long Men Quan: Lung Moon Kuen, Dragon School Boxing.
48. Tie Xian Quan: Tit Sin Kuen, Iron Wire Fist Method.
49. Wu Jia Quan: Wu Ga Kuen, Family Wu’s Boxing School.
50. Yu Quan: Yuh Kuen, Family Yuh Boxing System.
51. Da Mei Hua Quan: Taai Mooi Fa Kuen, Big Frame Plumblossem Style.

Wow so many styles in just one province amazing.

I think training wise the Cantonese & Fujian styles are identical it is a combination of soft-hard, internal-external & powerful explosice attacks. The only difference & I may be wrong is that I think Cantonese styles seem to more concentrated on long range.

[Nataraya]

Wu Lin Tien Ti,

I hope that my previous two replies did reflect part of the 'martial forest', hence the Wu Lin [Mo Lam] name. Many tree's or systems, but also many species from the same family/ origin. And this is exactly what it is, most tree's can be linked back to one particular family. I believe that it is a tree found back in the Yong Chun area of province Fukien.

It is ‘said’ that the Shaolin troops were located around that particular area, the so called lay disciples. Somewhere I did read that there were 108 of them. They practiced forms like: Sanzhan, Sanbujian, Sanbutui. That seems to be of practical value, highly structured and easy to learn in a short time. The longer practiced the higher the benefits on the battle field.

[Nataraya]

Just visit the Singapore Pak Hok homepage that Eric insert in his letter, and saw a remarkable thing. See photo:



A Siu lam orientated school doing a Unicorn/ Kiling dance, which is mainly done in Hakka culture/ systems. For me this is a strange observation. What does others think about this?

Warm regards,

Evert.

[pitbull]

that's master tan kokhwa of lama-pai! was he brought up on indo?

[Eric Ling]

pitbull said:

that's master tan kokhwa of lama-pai! was he brought up on indo?

Only Lama Pai Tan Kok Wah is from Hong Kong..........I think.

[namsiulamkuen]

Quote: Going deeper, if we were to examine Wing Chun and White Crane, are there parallels – in techniques and principles?

Not just in techniques and principles, but also similar histories. Both are alleged to have emerge from shaolin. Many practitioners from cantonese and fukien styles took refuge, acting as revolutionaries against the Ming, either in opera troupes or temples, where styles could have developed through sharing and exchange of information.

IMHO wing chun and fukien white crane were at time, part of the same style. There is a belief that wing chun was originally a chin na form of white crane and not a punch/kick style as led by the mainstream wing chun of today. The techniques of wu sau and tan sau etc were used to disarm, rather than attack.

NSLK