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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 3, 2005 7:42:52 GMT -5
Hello all Karate members of this forum, Like to open another topic which I hope is not opening another can of worms. 5 Elements Hands. The concept of 5 EH is almost common that permeates through most Southern Fukien CKF. From White Crane to Ngo Chor and many others, too many to mention, this concept of fighting is fundamental. Just wondering how much of this concept is exported to Okinawa or integrated into Karate? BTW, Whooping Crane San Jin is about “Swallowing, Spitting, Sinking and Floating” and 5 elements hands. Comments? Thank you. Posting 5 Ancestor’s 5 elements hands here. Will post from other styles later……..  |
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 3, 2005 10:25:06 GMT -5
I've never heard the 5 elements mentioned in any of my karate classes. I've also not heard the terms "Swallowing, sinking, spitting, and floating" used either. I think the concepts are there, but not spoken of specifically or in those terms.
I've also never been in a karate class where explanations based upon "Ki" had been used. Typically the classes have been more of a mechanical vs. metaphysical nature.
Rob
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Post by Mercury on Mar 4, 2005 15:04:32 GMT -5
My teacher talks of employing the 5 elemental phases i.e. Fire, Gold (Metal), Wood, Earth, Water in Kumite and Kata.
I suppose you could say as in the game paper, scissors, rock. They are physical and emotional responses i.e. against someone who is explosive (fire) receive and counter (ebb and flow of water).
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 5, 2005 0:16:21 GMT -5
Got a scan from NanQuan Huizong :- The interplay of the Southern CKF "5 Elements" hand system. Going clockwise:- - Metal beating Wood - Wood beating Earth - Earth beating Water - Water beating Fire - Fire beating Metal And round and round it goes...........  |
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Post by gwilliams on Mar 5, 2005 6:33:33 GMT -5
I don't think there can be any doubt about the extensive influence of Chinese arts upon Okinawan karate. There was a great deal of trade and cultural exchange, and China had a flourishing martial art for centuries. The Okinawans are just less metaphysical than the Chinese. Animal names, elements, associations with various actions like "spitting", "sinking," etc. are helpful ways of remembering techniques and their purpose, but there is just less of it in Okinawan arts.
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 5, 2005 8:07:24 GMT -5
I don't think there can be any doubt about the extensive influence of Chinese arts upon Okinawan karate. There was a great deal of trade and cultural exchange, and China had a flourishing martial art for centuries. The Okinawans are just less metaphysical than the Chinese. Animal names, elements, associations with various actions like "spitting", "sinking," etc. are helpful ways of remembering techniques and their purpose, but there is just less of it in Okinawan arts. Hi Gene, First, welcome to this little tea house. Okay, with you 100% that Chinese arts played a definitive in influencing Okinawan/Japanese culture – evident everywhere you go in Japan. That the Okinawans are less “metaphysical”, I beg to differ. I have been examining (somewhat) how the Okinawans worship their deities. In some cases, almost mirror images of Chinese rituals…..metaphysical, myths and everything……. If you say that Japanese are more “minimalist” – I say okay. The Okinawans ………  ? But as usual I must say I could be totally wrong. I design gardens and take care of plants..... |
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 5, 2005 11:09:39 GMT -5
I've trained with several Okinawan instructors (people born and bred in Okinawa) and It's not been my experience that they'd talk about things in metaphyisical terms. Now, that's just my experience, YMMV, and it could be that the situation with some of these men (seminars) didn't lend itself to such talk. OTOH, my Kobudo instr, with whom I've trained karate and kobudo extensively and have spent hours socializing with over beer, sake, sushi and aomori never once mentioned anything metaphysical. Rob Hi Gene, That the Okinawans are less “metaphysical”, I beg to differ. I have been examining (somewhat) how the Okinawans worship their deities. In some cases, almost mirror images of Chinese rituals…..metaphysical, myths and everything……. If you say that Japanese are more “minimalist” – I say okay. The Okinawans ……… ? But as usual I must say I could be totally wrong. I design gardens and take care of plants..... |
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Post by gwilliams on Mar 5, 2005 15:19:15 GMT -5
The Okinawans don't seem to mix the metaphysics up with karate so much as the Chinese, that's all. No big deal.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 7, 2005 10:14:51 GMT -5
Hello all Karate members of this forum, Like to open another topic which I hope is not opening another can of worms. 5 Elements Hands. The concept of 5 EH is almost common that permeates through most Southern Fukien CKF. From White Crane to Ngo Chor and many others, too many to mention, this concept of fighting is fundamental. Just wondering how much of this concept is exported to Okinawa or integrated into Karate? BTW, Whooping Crane San Jin is about “Swallowing, Spitting, Sinking and Floating” and 5 elements hands. Comments? Thank you. Posting 5 Ancestor’s 5 elements hands here. Will post from other styles later…….. Sink, Float, Swallow, and Spit are terms I have heard and understand them to be cornerstone principles. Whether this has it's origins with Miyagi or was introduced by another teacher along the way I do not know. One of my Goju teachers teaches a 'teacup exercise' which comes from ba gua gzhang and is used within the context of a move from Seisan. Another teacher, teaches exercises from a man named Liu Chang I who does some sort of crane system. None of my teachers talk about 5 element fists put I think ideas are there. My Wing Chun teachers never talked about 5 element fists either and it is a southern fist method. I can't imagine what sort of major differences we would find in Eric posted and the types of techniques that are practiced in Tensho or KiGiHowa. Then again I don't know if I really know the origin of kigihowa. If any of you guys know you can shoot me a PM. I would appreciate you input. Chinen Seisei and Yamakura Seisei discuss qi quite a bit. But not in terms of fighting stuff but in terrms of internal breathing and health. Sensei is practices some healing methods and is very knowlegable about accupressure types of stuff. Mr. Chinen refers to qi and internal breathing benefits of Sanchin and Tensho quite often. In Japanese if you feel good or are in very good health a word they use is GenKi (I have no idea on the proper romanji spelling I just spell it like I hear it.) If you are sick then a work is BiuKi. (same note on the spelling issue). I need to get to work. I have probably rambled on too much. Have a good week. |
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Post by olddragon on Jul 5, 2005 23:55:39 GMT -5
Hello all Karate members of this forum, Like to open another topic which I hope is not opening another can of worms. 5 Elements Hands. The concept of 5 EH is almost common that permeates through most Southern Fukien CKF. From White Crane to Ngo Chor and many others, too many to mention, this concept of fighting is fundamental. Just wondering how much of this concept is exported to Okinawa or integrated into Karate? BTW, Whooping Crane San Jin is about “Swallowing, Spitting, Sinking and Floating” and 5 elements hands. Comments? Thank you. Posting 5 Ancestor’s 5 elements hands here. Will post from other styles later…….. Eric: What you are talking about from an Okinawan perspective is commonly known as the Kempo Gokui. The Kempo Gokui is often known as the dojo kun in many okinawan dojo. Specifically the ones you speak of are known in The Isshin Ryu Codes, again also known as the dojo Kun. It is said that many of the Okinawan masters drew information from the Bubishi. I have read 2 versions and find Patrick McCarthy's the easiest to read. Isshin Ryu version of what can be found in the Bubishi is as follows. Codes of Isshin-Ryu 1. A PERSONS HEART IS THE SAME AS HEAVEN AND EARTH. 2. THE BLOOD CIRCULATING IS SMILAR TO THE MOON AND THE SUN. 3. THE MANNER OF DRINKING AND SPITTING IS EITHER HARD OR SOFT. 4. A PERSONS UNBALANCE IS THE SAME AS A WEIGHT. 5. THE BODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHANGE DIRECTION AT ANY TIME. 6. THE TIME TO STRIKE IS WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY PRESENTS ITSELF. 7. THE EYE MUST SEE ALL SIDES. 8. THE EAR MUST LISTEN IN ALL DIRECTIONS These were written by Shimabuku sensei (to the best of my knowledge) and are his impression of some of the highlights of the Bubishi.... Apparently the Bubishi was common amongst some of the old masters in Okinawa, it is a derrivative of the Chinese teachings the okinawans received. Although not many copies remain I do know of one man who saw Shimabuku use the Bubishi as a reference and he actually saw the copy. Apparently Miyagi is reported to have been influenced by it also. Mike O'Leary |
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Post by olddragon on Jul 6, 2005 0:27:20 GMT -5
Eric:
Writing the last post I was looking for this extract from the Bubishi and could not find it.... here is what Shimabuku is supposed to have found inspirational in the Bubishi and used as his Dojo Kun.
Eight poems of the Fist:
The human mind is one with heaven and earth.
Our blood circulation parallels the solar and lunar cycles of each day.
Inhaling represents softness while exhaling characterizes hardness.
Adapt to changing conditions.
Response must result without conscious thought.
Distancing and posture dictates the outcome of the meeting.
See what is unseeable.
Expect what is unexpected.
This is an excerpt from the Bubishi by Mr. McCarthy. It runs very close to the Codes of Isshinryu.
Mike O'Leary
It all deals with your original statements regarding swallowing, spitting, rise, fall,
We refer to the 13 hands of Isshin ryu or Karate as
8... directions of the compas
5 principles , rise, fall, push, pull, and center.
total 13 hands
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