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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 10, 2004 8:27:52 GMT -5
Hi,
Just wondering how many of you did the "entering door" ceremony with your Sifu.
You know how the older folks like to say; you are not a disciple until you kneel and offer tea to your Sifu.
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 10, 2004 10:07:16 GMT -5
Hello Eric,
A very nice question, which I can answer honestly. I NEVER did, although my Sifu asked me a few years to do one, I wave it away..........
My late Pak Mei Pai Sifu Jie Kon Sieuw, justs started to teach, and over the years of hard working you were invited to come over, eat with the family and frequently become a member of the family. No ritual, no words just attention and interest. Then something happened in my case, I make the wrong decision which did lead to a seperation. One of the stupist things I did in my life I must say, but I am of course responsible for my own stupid things. I let my self manipulated into a different direction, due to a financila and political background. later on I realized this. But my Sifu knew from the beginning that I was manipulated without having any clue.
twenty years later I saw him and walked to him. he reacted like seeing a misiing child/ son. This was d**n emotional, but pre from the heart. Later on I heard the stories from his Sihings and he was always talking about me, and my skill. personal I made the conclusion that - without Bai Shi - I was one of his children...
Story number 2: In 1980 I was in Hong Kong and met my Sigung and his student Jeff Hasbrouck. He was a hippy living for several years in Hong Kong. Practicing several systems as; traditional Chinese painting, acupuncture, meditation, and Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen. As usual, we left Hong Kong with the words to jeff, my house is your house. One year later he stood knocking on my [our] door. He and his wife were planning to live a life in the UK.
I had a large Shaolin Kempo school, and was teaching for a while. Jeff was interetsed in "how to teach", so we were friends in first case, colleagues at a latter stage. We were exchanging skills, and there was time that the Shaolin Kempo thing was "dead" stuff for me. Not the vehicle I was looking for. The Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen system had all the ingredients for me to research, preserve and develop in a more structure model. So, after six years of intensive study I decided to continue with these skills. Still, no Bai Shi. And it never happened. My teacher became the best man during my wedding, and my Simo is my Best friend. our wives were at the same time pregnant, so a special relationship is there without any ritual, or text. We both know that the answer is in the Heart and doesn't need an exhibition. Also no need to make such an official ritual because without the art there is no life for me. Insiders know and understand this.
Continuing story:
Non of my students EVER did a Bai Shih, and will never do it. I have a traditional altar in my room, and the protrets of my ancestres and close family are there, that's all. My oldest student trains with me for 20 years now, he is in his fifties and grandfather. Recently I student start practicing again after 20 years of absence. Meaning that they will find "home" again, and the door is always open for my old students.
In the group are inner door students, those are part of my family. Funny because my wife see them as their children. But none is being said, but felt. That's more then enough.
Once the door will open because they are adult, and start to find there own path. Just as in daily life. Then the true lesson will start, and later there will be a sign of respect yes/ no. I must convince that it feels SO good when old students talk about the past. Then the words "Sifu" get their meaning. And yes, for ALL my students I am Evert and not Sifu. I am allergic for titles, as I always stay a practitioner till my death.
Sorry for the long reply, but it is Eric's Fault!!!!!!!!! ;-)
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Post by pitbull on Oct 10, 2004 18:15:22 GMT -5
i would have done it if not for my religion(which forbids kowtowing to mortals and anything created by the hands of man)..im glad that they understood it and saw my eanrestness to learn instead
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Oct 10, 2004 18:34:24 GMT -5
I did it purely out of respect for my sifu, and because it did not entail anything that I had not already committed to anyway. I have never regretted doing it.
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 10, 2004 18:52:10 GMT -5
Sorrry, Sorry.........
But this is how I feel :-
It is like living together without going through the marriage ceremony.........
I hear you "cursing" - sorry.
Hehehehe
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Fatman
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Post by Fatman on Oct 10, 2004 19:49:37 GMT -5
Sorrry, Sorry......... But this is how I feel :- It is like living together without going through the marriage ceremony......... I hear you "cursing" - sorry. Hehehehe Was this for me? If so, you have nothing to apoligse for. Like marriage, it is a personal thing. Either you do it or you don't. There is no right or wrong. For me, I felt so much respect for GM Chee that it felt right to do the ceremony, and for me it was the right thing to do. Not everyone feels that way, and they should not be expected to do it if they do not want to. |
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 11, 2004 0:07:17 GMT -5
Seriously, Evert, this is one issue that we don’t see eyes 2 eyes. “Pai Shi” ceremony is important to me. It is a ritual that has been around since the start of systemized Kung Fu. The act of kneeling before your teacher and offering tea signifies:- • Your Sifu is publicly displaying his acceptance of you as a disciple. Most of such ceremonies are usually witnessed by invited Masters and Sifus from other styles and schools. • You are, by the acceptance, a part of a family. It is like becoming “sworn” sons, brothers and sisters. The tea you offer is to be re - offered, by your Sifu, to all your kung fu ancestors. All the way to the founder. That is why a “Pai Shi” ceremony is very elaborate with wine/food offerings done at the altar table. I know some of you feels that this is just a public display of what is already there – your relationship with your teacher. Some of you, on religious grounds, cannot subject yourselves to rituals of this nature. It’s okay. Like what “nothingness” said, it is up to the different individuals. For me, I guess I am a traditionalist. Like many other aspects of traditional CKF, I am trying to keep as much of this as possible. Also, I only kneel before my God, King (if I got one),my ancestors, my parents and my Sifu. Kneeling in front of my Sifu is my way of paying my respect. So I drink coffee and you drink tea…….so what? ;D ;D ;D actually,  I drink beer. |
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Post by nothingness on Oct 11, 2004 1:34:33 GMT -5
What do you think about being taken as a son instead of doing pai shih and be a closed door student?
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Post by pitbull on Oct 11, 2004 3:31:36 GMT -5
i actually cant even call any mortal master...its actually difficult looking for a bridge between 2 cultures.for me its so hard to compromise between matters of the spirit and culture...thats why i only call 'teacher' or 'sien'
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Post by Eric Ling on Oct 11, 2004 3:35:33 GMT -5
What do you think about being taken as a son instead of doing pai shih and be a closed door student? To me it is kinda like the same thing. You go through "Pai Shi", your teacher now becomes your "father". If you don't "Pai Shi" and your teacher "adopt" you as a son, you still end up with a Si - Teacher Fu - Father I know we could go round and round on this. It's like you say - there is no right or wrong. It is just that with certain Sifus, they insist on this rite. |
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Post by Suhana LIM on Oct 11, 2004 6:45:45 GMT -5
Da jia ni men hao
We didn't do that ritual, but the relationship was and is like father and sons. Cheers.
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Post by Nataraya on Oct 11, 2004 7:26:35 GMT -5
To write down properly what you mean, is very tough. After reading my letter back again, I can imagine that it can be read twofold. My excuse for that. I dare to say that I am a traditionalist, without doing a Bai Shi ceremony.
My teacher started to teach in 1984 in Bristol, UK. By then I was practicing already three years very intensively. In fact my teacher lived for months [per year] with us. In the UK he started to teach, and directly started to introduce the Tea ceremony. His students were blanc
and he raised them from 'birth'. I was then already a martial arts teacher, and did already teach part of the curriculum to chosen students. In 1986 I decide to choose to practice only NSLHGK.
I think, in my case, I didn't need to have a marriage. I am 27 years with my wife now, and will be there till the end of my life. Not a discussion at all. I have seen students, in the school of my teacher, coming in naked and leave the door 6 months later. Even frauds that took some information and started to teach. Signs of disrespect that I can not imagine, and can not identify with.
To continue with Eric's reply I can say that my teacher stated a few years ago, that he did his job. This emotional response - in front of Simo too - was an official sign of "respect" and acceptance. In his eyes I did read the responsibility I have in the future. This after 20 years
of hard work and dedication, it was clear for my Sifu were my heart is......
My teacher didn't do the tea ceremony too. But he was asked to live with his Sifu Lai. Sigung Lai had only daughters and live in a small apartment on Hong Kong Island. No option that Sifu and Simo join Lai Ng Sam. For all artist and students it was clear that my Sifu was adopted as the son. Not officially, but in 'emotion'. Everybody knew, and this is more then enough. You feel that he is your father, no way different.
The only interpretation of the word Sifu. In fact this is what I mean in my previous mail. If students stay for 20 years, or come back after 20 years, then you understand the meaning of being a teacher. Again, not one student use the title of Sifu to me, we interpret it as a non verbal sign. This is more then enough..........
For me there is no cultural bridge, its in the Heart. Its about respect. How do I coop with my wife, my father and grandfather. Colleagues, children.... Yes we are talking about Mo Duk. I have no problems with the fact that 99% will miss the boat, a matter of 'natural' selection.....
The circling as discussed - in the last sentence - by Eric, does perfectly resemble the essence. The essence lay deeper then words can grab. In that way I am afraid that I again failed in explaining what I mean.. Sorry....
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I drink beer.