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Post by mickeykh on Mar 10, 2005 4:35:14 GMT -5
The long term human memory that is due to repeated movements and do not require consciousness is linear in the learning acquirement. It means that 20 hours of learning (repetition) is 20 hours of repetions regardless if you do it in 1, 3, or 20 days.. That is why we have a requirement to do it 1000 times!.. ;D However, there is also the stamina and physical ability constraints. That is something that is not hard to overcome if we really persists...the mental constrainst is somewhat overwhelming.
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Post by nothingness on Mar 10, 2005 4:41:48 GMT -5
"That is why we have a requirement to do it 1000 times!.. "
I can see that someone will soon jump in and hijack this topic into a different direction ;D.
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Leon
New Member
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Post by Leon on Mar 10, 2005 11:10:32 GMT -5
I am not a CKF expert, but i'd like to offer my views on the subject.
In MMA (Mixed martial arts) competition, there is a fighter called 'Jean Silva'. He fights MMA in the octagon, and the style that he uses is the usual BJJ, muay thai, but he also mixes in capoeira during his fights. He was born in Brazil, and has studied capoeira before. Usually in MMA matches, the most favoured techniques are BJJ, vale tudo, Judo and muay thai. But as a homage to his capoeira, Jean Silva will try apply as much capoeira as he can such as cart wheels, capoeira kicks, jumping kicks and sweeping roundhouses, etc. It is very very nice to watch him enter the mount from a cartwheel, or to get a takedown from a hooking back roundhouse. Even during his ground and pound, the way he swings seems wilder than other fighters.
I realize that what he's doing is not pure capoeira, but in this case, "it's the thought that counts". It looks beautiful, and one victory using his capoeira fusion is worth at least 2 victories IMHO.
Is anyone familiar with this fighter? I'll try see where you can download his videos.
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Leon
New Member
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Post by Leon on Mar 12, 2005 17:33:00 GMT -5
I have a highlight video of Jean Silva on my laptop, and have uploaded it here: s22.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=31IFBJUCWIF4N0459P65NJBAJNClick on that link to go to the video; and you should be able to download it. (8.98 MB) (The video will expire in 7 days) There's a lot of fancy moves, i really like the part at 1.36 he uses his leg to catch the opponent.
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Post by chaotic2k on Mar 18, 2005 17:26:36 GMT -5
Totally agree with alot of points. I believe forms are very important, they devlope a number of skills all at the same time. In my system the forms act as a living text book, with many concepts which can be taken indervidually or together and applied in real life fighting. I think the people who put forms down, lacked the right depth and understanding in martial arts.
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Post by nothingness on Mar 19, 2005 0:45:38 GMT -5
Unless you do forms just for forms; aesthetic and beauty only. I object this notion. Totally agree with alot of points. I believe forms are very important, they devlope a number of skills all at the same time. In my system the forms act as a living text book, with many concepts which can be taken indervidually or together and applied in real life fighting. I think the people who put forms down, lacked the right depth and understanding in martial arts.
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Marc
New Member
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Post by Marc on Mar 21, 2005 0:06:28 GMT -5
"I believe forms are very important, they devlope a number of skills all at the same time."
Chaotic2k can you please expand on this? Can you list what skills are developed at the same time?
Not specifically for Chaotic2k but for others to join in and express their viewpoints, I'll say this:
I dont put down forms unless I have a reason too, for example; as a competition sport I can live with all the fancy acrobatics, gymnastics and overly exagerated targets (fighting Giants or Ants) seen in modern forms but I draw the line when these same individuals speak on their value as fighting forms.
I will say this, you cant develop reflexes or timing for fighting without physical opposition; someone fighting you with real intent or an apparatus providing resistance. This is non-existent in solo forms practice.
I do understand the value of some forms as developmental exercises. I classify Sam Chien, Sam Bo Chin, Teet Sin Kuen and other Hei Gung/Noi Gung sets in this manner.
That said, there arent too many developmental forms within todays popular Kung Fu, so the rest of these sets are for what? archiving technology? maintaining students? or are they for scared practitioners not willing to play rough?
It does not make practical sense to train fighting by constantly dancing alone. What makes sense is constantly working on the technology with friendly partners and coming as close to a real fight as possible, whether you use protective equipment or not.
It also does not make sense to archive fighting knowledge in dancing form unless one is trying to conceal it from prying eyes. That said a teacher who truly wants his student to know the technology will always pass it, hands on! He wouldnt expect his student to learn it from dancing for decades. That would make it folk dancing and not fighting. Fighting is a constant reality in human life, so learn to deal with it now, not ten years from now!
Theres a saying in CMA that one year in Wrestling equals three years in any other discipline. Do you know why? Its not that their technology is superior, its that they mostly train two-man and thus are better prepared for struggle.
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Post by nothingness on Mar 21, 2005 1:24:19 GMT -5
Forms are a neccesary condition, but it is not sufficient. Nobody ever says that only forms will make you into a great fighter.
They are just the blueprints of the techniques that need to be applied correctly.
Sparring is also a necessary condition, it is not a sufficient condition. A mastery of sparring might not keep you alive in a self defense situatuon when anything can happen. Yet, it helps you to get prepared for a self-defense situation.
All are only methods of training. Yet, when all the trainings won't keep you alive, it is garbage.
Competition is also a training. Yet it is also a game. Games have rules. Some rules of the game try to prevent fatal injuries of the participants. Some of those rules who prevents fatal injuries of the participants also condition the non-usage of certain movements that can be useful in a self-defense situation.
Throw a novice into a spar immediately. Surely you will mode the person into a better fighter in a short term. However, will he continue to progress well in a long run? He might have to re-invent the wheel again. Some of the wisdom of the previous generations' experiences have been embodied in forms.
When form equals to void, then it is useful. Otherwise, it is garbage.
Notice that form is not defined as a sequence of choreographed movements. Form is defined as the correct reaction/method to do a certain movement.
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Post by TenTigers on Mar 21, 2005 10:26:54 GMT -5
Too often there are people under the mistaken notion that forms are imaginary fights against multiple opponents. That cannot be further from the truth. This myth probably came about from US servicemen learning Karate while stationed on Okinawa. They only recieved a smattering of technique and knowledge, and the rest they sort of made up on the fly. while teaching it in the USA. I look at it like this: student: "why are we doing this?" teacher "Kata is the heart and soul of Karate. It is how the art is carried down intact, generation after generation. It teaches concepts of movement, alignment, structure,breathing, power generation, internal development,angles, and technique." student: "Huh?" teacher: (in exasperated tone) agghhh, it's an imaginary fight against multiple opponents! Just do it!" student: "Ahhh, I see! Why didn't you say so in the first place?" Even Bruce Lee never got past this myth.
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Hungfist
Full Member
...gotta launder my Karma.
Posts: 120
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Post by Hungfist on Mar 22, 2005 9:08:16 GMT -5
Forms are a neccesary condition, but it is not sufficient. Nobody ever says that only forms will make you into a great fighter. They are just the blueprints of the techniques that need to be applied correctly. Sparring is also a necessary condition, it is not a sufficient condition. A mastery of sparring might not keep you alive in a self defense situatuon when anything can happen. Yet, it helps you to get prepared for a self-defense situation. All are only methods of training. Yet, when all the trainings won't keep you alive, it is garbage. Competition is also a training. Yet it is also a game. Games have rules. Some rules of the game try to prevent fatal injuries of the participants. Some of those rules who prevents fatal injuries of the participants also condition the non-usage of certain movements that can be useful in a self-defense situation. Throw a novice into a spar immediately. Surely you will mode the person into a better fighter in a short term. However, will he continue to progress well in a long run? He might have to re-invent the wheel again. Some of the wisdom of the previous generations' experiences have been embodied in forms. When form equals to void, then it is useful. Otherwise, it is garbage. Notice that form is not defined as a sequence of choreographed movements. Form is defined as the correct reaction/method to do a certain movement. I agree with this...I also think forms are to make you THINK! Forms are the seed - but I think you grow your own tree from this.
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DF
New Member
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Post by DF on Mar 22, 2005 18:55:55 GMT -5
I have a different take on the forms issue. Drills and techniques are taught first and forms are last. In the old days, most ppl did not know how to read and write and unlike today, there was no such thing as a certificate or pic. Forms were the means to show other martail artist you are what you say you are without fighing, a certificate of motion so of speak.
DF
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Post by mickeykh on Mar 27, 2005 0:01:41 GMT -5
Theres a saying in CMA that one year in Wrestling equals three years in any other discipline. Do you know why? Its not that their technology is superior, its that they mostly train two-man and thus are better prepared for struggle. I thought the saying should be 2 years of sparring not wrestling. but the part of 2 man training is true
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Post by konghan on Apr 21, 2005 15:06:09 GMT -5
Forms will help a martial artist develop a better understanding of his / her martial art style.
Without forms, there is no style, without style there is no martial art just mere fighting which every individual knows how to do.
Forms and drill should go hand in hand, but forms should take 70 -75 % over drills.
Becuase forms already contains a sequence of drills that are relevant and practical in actual combat as well as in developing physical conditioning and fitness.
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