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Post by ambisinister on Feb 20, 2005 18:52:48 GMT -5
I have often wondered about the shaolin monastic tradition and have decided that I need to better understand the development processes that they undertook both physically, mentally and spiritually. Many books have been written that discuss that monks practiced mediation, purification and mental discipline but I have found little on the methodology, structure, language and cosmology of that process. It occurs to me that a better understanding of these things will give rise to a better understanding of the heritage, culture and forms that we/I practice. One note that I have picked up is from the I-Ching and Chinese culture that references the transition of the inferior man to that of the superior man. Does any of this resonate with you? and perchance can you help point me in the right direction. Ambisinister  |
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Post by Suhana LIM on Feb 21, 2005 5:09:28 GMT -5
Ambisinister ni hao Welcome to the forum. Would like to know about you, if you wouldn't mind. TIA  Cheers. |
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Post by Suhana LIM on Feb 21, 2005 5:21:39 GMT -5
Wayne ni hao
Pardon me for the previous posting, I didn't see the introduction that you've posted earlier.
IMHO Shaolin main task is teaching Dharma. But most people think that martial art is the main focus of the temple.
Cheers.
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Post by ambisinister on Feb 21, 2005 7:19:07 GMT -5
Hello Lim and thankyou for the welcome  The teachings of the Buddha as passed through the Buddhadharma’s offer as I understand it a method of self realisation and developement. But as in my own culture Christianity is taught and learned at different levels, and I believe that this is also true of Buddism. There are the laymen, the priests in the world and those that retire to a monastry to develop and contemplate. I feel that it is unlikely that the Shaolin monks would have spent so much time training in MA not to have intergrated their spiritual development processes into it. We all recognise the Marshal aspect and the need in the time of its development but what is less obvious are the ways in which it was applied to the development of the monks consouisness. If we accept this as a possibility then what we generally find is that we have the external manifestation of this work i.e. the form but I have yet to find information relating to the internal mental dynamic that would go with it. I may be barking up the wrong tree, I figure I will have to go and find myself some mondern day shaolin monk's and speak with them. Wayne |
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Post by Suhana LIM on Feb 22, 2005 5:25:15 GMT -5
Ambisinister ni hao The reason that Shaolin also included martial art training, IMHO, for its monks exercise and self defence. The other reason is that, through training martial arts, one learn how to use one's wisdom mind to conquer or control one's emotional mind. This is one of the most effective ways of reaching a high level of spiritual understanding of life. The Buddhist believe that our physical body is only used to cultivate our spirit; once we have reached a high level of spirit, the physical body is no longer important. That's my own humble knowledge and understanding, but Of course if you can chat directly with the real Shaolin monk will be good. You can receive the info directly first hand. |
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Post by konghan on Feb 22, 2005 9:30:26 GMT -5
I think not all monks train in combat martial art, but I think most of them train to be healthy. Physical prowess combine with spiritualilty is also, in my opinion, to perform exorcism. Usually people who are possess tend to have extra ordinary physical strength. And it is during exorcist rites that martial monks are present to assist the elder monks to restrain the victim. But this martial monks must also have strong spirituality or else they will be over power by the devil.  In Japan, zen monks in some degree also train in martial art. Martial art goes hand in hand with their religion. |
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Post by essence on Feb 22, 2005 9:53:39 GMT -5
Good day ambisinister.
From what I know, Shaolin monks practice martial arts in conjunction with their religion due to the reason that they compliment each other.
One of the better known stories on how the monks started practising martial arts was because Dharma found the monks unfit and many would doze off during meditation. He then taught breathing sets to the monks for them to practice and get better health, allowing them to meditate better.
Another story is that ancient China was full of bandits and robbers and thus, the monks learnt and practised martial arts in order to protect both themselves and the monastery.
There is a saying too, that in order for you to excel martially, you have to excel spiritually and mentally first. As practising martial arts may lead to a violent mindset, religion and non-violence is taught as a sort of an opposite, the yin to the yang, which also compliments martial arts.
The Taoist theory on practising martial arts is that you first have to master the physical body before you try to master the spiritual and mental self, which may be a reason why Shaolin monks practise martial arts alongside religion.
Warmest regards,
Tze Hou
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Post by TenTigers on Feb 22, 2005 11:16:28 GMT -5
Another explanation might be that there is the belief that the body and the mind/spirit are inseparable. One cannot devolop one without the other. How can a disciplined mind live in a body of sloth, how can a strong body be developed without strong will, and intent?
Taoists believe that to be able to reach the higher levels of spiritual mastery and Ch'i-gung, that the body must be a perfect vehicle in order to withstand the rigors of training, and the energies developed. This seems to make sense to me as well. Deng Ming-Dao speaks of the Scholar Warriors as men with bodies and minds honed to perfection.
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Post by Suhana LIM on Feb 25, 2005 20:41:42 GMT -5
Another explanation might be that there is the belief that the body and the mind/spirit are inseparable. One cannot devolop one without the other. How can a disciplined mind live in a body of sloth, how can a strong body be developed without strong will, and intent? Taoists believe that to be able to reach the higher levels of spiritual mastery and Ch'i-gung, that the body must be a perfect vehicle in order to withstand the rigors of training, and the energies developed. This seems to make sense to me as well. Deng Ming-Dao speaks of the Scholar Warriors as men with bodies and minds honed to perfection. Da jia ni men hao Good point. This again shows how real and important to cultivate the "San Pao" (Jing, Qi, and Shen). Cheers. |
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Post by ambisinister on Feb 28, 2005 15:45:31 GMT -5
Thank you for your reponses, many good points have been raised.
I find it interesting that references to marshal arts and the spiritual teaching are in the context of seperate actions, with the shaolin monks practicing marshal arts along side their religion.
Personally I would have expected more intergration, which 'Suhana LIM' and Tze Hou allude to:
These quotes touch on the types of intergrated spiritual practices one might see, as the development of these skills are key to most religions spiritual development programs.
For the shaolin monks was marshal arts for warrior development or a warrior-monk dynamic yoga ?
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Post by Patrick on Mar 1, 2005 0:19:07 GMT -5
Hello,
Clearly there is an established link between many martial arts – kung fu in particular - and not only different forms of spirituality, but also advanced conceptions of how the mind, body and spirit work. I doubt many would dispute this. There is merit in discussing the order of things; whether the physical arts lay the foundation for advanced meditation and spiritual development, or certain states of mind and being are a prerequisite for excelling in the physical elements of Kung Fu. However, one question I would like to ask of those more experienced than I is this: how important is full acceptance of the spiritual, medicinal, cultural, etc. aspects associated with tradition Chinese martial arts to understanding, learning, and developing the physical abilities? I think this is becoming increasingly relevant as traditional Chinese martial arts are being practiced by potentially large numbers of people who neither descend from, understand, or embrace these parts of Chinese culture. Furthermore, there seems to be a growing separation within Chinese society, in which many of the younger generations are no longer as interested in retaining what they have inherited from the past. At its root, I am interested in just how holistic traditional Chinese martial arts are, and what the implications are of 1) selecting certain parts while neglecting others, and 2) viewing Kung Fu as a system of fighting rather than as a complete all-encompassing lifestyle. Any thoughts on the subject would be most welcome.
All the best,
Patrick
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Post by essence on Mar 1, 2005 4:06:59 GMT -5
Good day Patrick.
In answer to your question, I am one such person. I love the Chinese culture and what it encompasses, but on the other hand, I am a Christian.
As a Christian, I am restricted to what I can do, and thus, am unable to offer incense to the ancestors and such other practices, but that does not stop me from pursuing why these practices have become commonplace. I search deep for the traditions within my style, even though my religion prohibits me from performing some of them, to gain a better understanding of the entire picture.
I suppose people who select certain parts to concentrate on and neglect the whole picture will miss out on the more interesting aspects of the arts, as this thread has proved, religion has been worked into the martial arts.
I hesitate to use this example, as it is very subjective, but I want to point this out. Extreme pursuit of kung fu as solely a fighting art and neglecting the other aspects of it may be a dangerous thing. Many extremely good fighters who train all day to fight die young, many from self-inflicted injuries which are not immediately obvious. IMHO, Bruce Lee was a victim of this pursuit of self-perfection. As I said, this is very subjective and many would disagree.
One of Hung Gar's greatest fighters, Tit Kiu Sam, also died from injuries sustained through training, I was told, although this happened when he was already quite old. An example of his legendary strength, I was told, was that he used to hold 300 jin weights with outstretched arms for half an hour as his training routine.
As many people will stress, kung fu is based on the yin yang principle. If kung fu is the yang, there must be a yin aspect to it, therefore, in order to complete the circle, there must be an understanding of the yin aspect to compliment the yang aspect.
Warmest regards,
Tze Hou
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Post by Suhana LIM on Mar 1, 2005 4:44:49 GMT -5
Hello, Clearly there is an established link between many martial arts – kung fu in particular - and not only different forms of spirituality, but also advanced conceptions of how the mind, body and spirit work. I doubt many would dispute this. There is merit in discussing the order of things; whether the physical arts lay the foundation for advanced meditation and spiritual development, or certain states of mind and being are a prerequisite for excelling in the physical elements of Kung Fu. However, one question I would like to ask of those more experienced than I is this: how important is full acceptance of the spiritual, medicinal, cultural, etc. aspects associated with tradition Chinese martial arts to understanding, learning, and developing the physical abilities? I think this is becoming increasingly relevant as traditional Chinese martial arts are being practiced by potentially large numbers of people who neither descend from, understand, or embrace these parts of Chinese culture. Furthermore, there seems to be a growing separation within Chinese society, in which many of the younger generations are no longer as interested in retaining what they have inherited from the past. At its root, I am interested in just how holistic traditional Chinese martial arts are, and what the implications are of 1) selecting certain parts while neglecting others, and 2) viewing Kung Fu as a system of fighting rather than as a complete all-encompassing lifestyle. Any thoughts on the subject would be most welcome. All the best, Patrick Patrick ni hao Warm welcome to the tea house. Nice to know you. Mind telling us about yourself? Cheers. |
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Post by Suhana LIM on Mar 1, 2005 4:52:51 GMT -5
Good day Patrick. As many people will stress, kung fu is based on the yin yang principle. If kung fu is the yang, there must be a yin aspect to it, therefore, in order to complete the circle, there must be an understanding of the yin aspect to compliment the yang aspect. Warmest regards, Tze Hou Tze Hou ni hao All Chinese arts are based on YIN YANG, WU XING, and QI principles. Not only martial art but others such as TCM and Kan Yu. Even when preparing daily meals, a Chinese mother subconsciously applies Yin Yang principle. Cheers. |
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Post by Patrick on Mar 1, 2005 8:53:20 GMT -5
Hello. I am currently living in Kuching in East Malaysia, and have been studying under sifu Ling while here. I am originally from the US, and, as an anthropologist, have been conducting research in South East Asia. I am a novice when it comes to traditional Chinese martial arts.
Thank you for your replies. I appreciate your perspectives on the issue. If I may take the discussion a bit further, I have found that there is a difference between pursuing knowledge and understanding of something, and true belief. It sometimes seems that there is almost a power (for lack of a better word) that is inherent within a profound sense of belief and acceptance of something as the way things are that can not be felt in the absence of faith. I don’t mean this strictly in a religious sense, but rather in the acceptance of an entire way of thinking and living – of being. I wonder how limited a person’s relationship with traditional arts is because of a lack of belief (not lack of knowledge) in things (spiritual, cultural, intellectual, etc.) that formed the context within which the arts originally developed.
All the best,
Patrick
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