CEB
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Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 3, 2005 13:52:35 GMT -5
Here is video clip. I don’t know if this is one of Russ’ home movies or from where it comes. Unknown Shisochin from some festival I am curious about the style of the practitioner working this form. The form is Shisochin. This version is done in way that seem to reflect some of the applications I have been taught but not done in the style in which I do the form. One of the things I am looking at is the 'elbow break' after the form steps forward the off angle long front stance. The movement he is doing in the video still appears to be a form of bridge destruction I have been taught but we do not show it in the kata like this. In video he appears to be showing a technique where you strike the bridge arm at the elbow from underneath with the crook of your arm. A move with similar a application is the rising punch in Seiunchin and Seisan. How we generally show the technique in Shisochin kata though is we attack the bridging arm by striking with the outside forearm. To get the power and penetration on this attack we need fully pivot the hips. When we are perpendicular to arm we the strike has maximum penetration if kake uke/ grab/trap was successful. I am curious if the practitioner in the video is Goju Ryu. If he is Goju Ryu I wonder if this kata reflects any particular school or may they are attempting to do the form as some sort of re-creationist in an effort to get back to some root style. Maybe he is Ryuei Ryu or nutso Ryu I have no idea. I just find the version interesting and wonder if anyone know anything about the people. Thank you. PS - Here is something I experienced often. A good example is toward the beginning of kata Seipai. There is a joint attack, which I have been taught to be the application. This is where you clasp your hands together drive your right forearm up. To do the technique and make it work you need to raise the forearm so the elbow is above the shoulder. This is the way Chinen Sensei teaches the form. I got busted by my Sensei once in class doing it that way and was told ‘No Ed make a nice presentation the bunkai is there we just do show it to people’. Same type of thing happened with Kimo Sensei once where he was doing it with the rising elbow and folks started to copy him and they were told no not to change the kata because what he was doing was bunkai. But then again there are times Sensei just flat out changes stuff with out batting an eye. I supposes he assumes we have been around long enough to know to put it back the way it should be when it is time to pass down again. Have a good weekend.
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 3, 2005 14:02:31 GMT -5
Server's swamped at the moment. Will try to tune in later. In the meantime.... I am curious if the practitioner in the video is Goju Ryu. If he is Goju Ryu I wonder if this kata reflects any particular school or may they are attempting to do the form as some sort of re-creationist in an effort to get back to some root style. Maybe he is Ryuei Ryu or nutso Ryu I have no idea. I just find the version interesting and wonder if anyone know anything about the people. You can take a look at the Shi To Kai's version of Shisochin. It's pretty typical of Shi To Ryu. You'll see it's pretty similar to the Goju version. I've experienced that with my kobudo instr, when we were working his Naifanchi and some of his other kata. He says, "you don't show your bunkai when you perform kata". And, sometimes he doesn't, but sometimes he does. It seems rather arbitrary and capricious. Anyway, often, when comparing Goju vs Shi To versions of a particular kata, I see that the primary difference between the two is that Miyagi and Mabuni emphasized different elements of the bunkai in their performances of the kata. Rob
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 3, 2005 14:27:58 GMT -5
Hi Ed, Just saw the clip.... Here is video clip. I don’t know if this is one of Russ’ home movies or from where it comes. Unknown Shisochin from some festival I am curious about the style of the practitioner working this form. The form is Shisochin. This version is done in way that seem to reflect some of the applications I have been taught but not done in the style in which I do the form. One of the things I am looking at is the 'elbow break' after the form steps forward the off angle long front stance. The movement he is doing in the video still appears to be a form of bridge destruction I have been taught but we do not show it in the kata like this. In video he appears to be showing a technique where you strike the bridge arm at the elbow from underneath with the crook of your arm. A move with similar a application is the rising punch in Seiunchin and Seisan. How we generally show the technique in Shisochin kata though is we attack the bridging arm by striking with the outside forearm. To get the power and penetration on this attack we need fully pivot the hips. When we are perpendicular to arm we the strike has maximum penetration if kake uke/ grab/trap was successful. Looks to me like he's using the outside of his forearm to apply the elbow break. Also, he's using a full hip twist. That's how it looks to me. Rob
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CEB
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Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 3, 2005 14:46:44 GMT -5
Maybe he is. Hard for me to tell he is pretty quick for me. But the hip are not rotating enough for his forearm to clear his body, his arm is still in front of his body. If his seizing hand is in the chamber then I don't think there is as much pentration on the strike as one would like. Does this make sense? I try to teach this by making sure sure the students belt knots are facing the side of the workout room. This assumes the bad guy is to the front of the room. Thanks.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 3, 2005 14:53:04 GMT -5
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 3, 2005 17:07:05 GMT -5
Picture of Gentleman Performing Shisochin. He needs to pull his Left hand more. ;D Rob
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 3, 2005 18:07:20 GMT -5
The problem with pictures is you don’t really know if the man getting his picture took has finished the technique he may still be in motion. I would guess this man is very good or he wouldn't be on the internet. The guys on this forum have posted a lot of Bak Mei pictures. A lot of postures from Bak Mei and Southern Mantis look like things we work in our Goju. The problem is I have no idea what movements got them there or where they are going. It may have nothing to do with anything we work. But I sure like their clothes and their weapons are really cool also. As far as Shisochin, what I like to see out of our bunch here is that the back hand is pulled all the way back and the forearm out so it is straight up and down. Combined with completing the hip shift so belt knot is perpendicular with the attacker it maxs the force against the arm. This is the harsh version. There is a controlling technique version which is different, more like a cutting movement. The control one is not what we show in the kata however, just another bunkai. Its in the same boat as the one where you drive the crook of your arm upward into his extended elbow joint. I tried to mention some of this in the bridge destruction thread but being karate guys we don't really count.
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Post by Kosokun on Mar 3, 2005 18:57:10 GMT -5
The problem with pictures is you don’t really know if the man getting his picture took has finished the technique he may still be in motion. I would guess this man is very good or he wouldn't be on the internet. Ed, I was just teasing! That's why the smilies. Rob
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Post by Gojumaster on Mar 3, 2005 19:26:15 GMT -5
Ed, yes, this is video I shot personally at the 2004 Tsahunahiki (tug-of-war) festival in Naha, Okinawa. Here is video clip. I don’t know if this is one of Russ’ home movies or from where it comes. Unknown Shisochin from some festival I am curious about the style of the practitioner working this form. The form is Shisochin. This version is done in way that seem to reflect some of the applications I have been taught but not done in the style in which I do the form. One of the things I am looking at is the 'elbow break' after the form steps forward the off angle long front stance. The movement he is doing in the video still appears to be a form of bridge destruction I have been taught but we do not show it in the kata like this. In video he appears to be showing a technique where you strike the bridge arm at the elbow from underneath with the crook of your arm. A move with similar a application is the rising punch in Seiunchin and Seisan. How we generally show the technique in Shisochin kata though is we attack the bridging arm by striking with the outside forearm. To get the power and penetration on this attack we need fully pivot the hips. When we are perpendicular to arm we the strike has maximum penetration if kake uke/ grab/trap was successful. I am curious if the practitioner in the video is Goju Ryu. If he is Goju Ryu I wonder if this kata reflects any particular school or may they are attempting to do the form as some sort of re-creationist in an effort to get back to some root style. Maybe he is Ryuei Ryu or nutso Ryu I have no idea. I just find the version interesting and wonder if anyone know anything about the people. Thank you. PS - Here is something I experienced often. A good example is toward the beginning of kata Seipai. There is a joint attack, which I have been taught to be the application. This is where you clasp your hands together drive your right forearm up. To do the technique and make it work you need to raise the forearm so the elbow is above the shoulder. This is the way Chinen Sensei teaches the form. I got busted by my Sensei once in class doing it that way and was told ‘No Ed make a nice presentation the bunkai is there we just do show it to people’. Same type of thing happened with Kimo Sensei once where he was doing it with the rising elbow and folks started to copy him and they were told no not to change the kata because what he was doing was bunkai. But then again there are times Sensei just flat out changes stuff with out batting an eye. I supposes he assumes we have been around long enough to know to put it back the way it should be when it is time to pass down again. Have a good weekend.
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 3, 2005 20:10:36 GMT -5
Do you know the background of the demonstrators? Are they a branch of Goju? Thanks
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Post by Eric Ling on Mar 4, 2005 5:08:24 GMT -5
Errrrrh, sorry to poke my big nose into this discussion. I got something here from Hung Fut kung fu that make use of the 2 elbows sequence. Again sorry for the intrusion.....
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Post by Gojumaster on Mar 6, 2005 17:50:45 GMT -5
Ed, Unfortunately I wasn't able to get this information. We were very lucky that David was able to get us into such a good spot in the crowd, to get this on video...we couldn't actually see this directly; I had to hold the camera far above my head to get the footage. Best Regards, Russ Do you know the background of the demonstrators? Are they a branch of Goju? Thanks
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Post by okinawagojuryu on Mar 7, 2005 4:28:37 GMT -5
I hope next year when we return , we can meet some of the demonstrators . I think it would be a good oppourtunity .
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CEB
Junior Member
Old Judo Player
Posts: 71
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Post by CEB on Mar 7, 2005 9:35:09 GMT -5
Thanks a lot guys. You too Eric. Always good to hear from you. Sorry if I am not prompt in responding. I do not get to the computer much on the weekend especially when the weather is nice and we finally had some warmer weather this weekend.
I have been given responsibility for insuring Sarbanes-Oxley compliance. So I may not be checking in much during the week either.
Have a good week.
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