Fa Jin vs Shi Jin

[Wanderer]

How to generate Jin and deliver Jin?

Wai Jia focuses on punches and kicks. These are point delivery of high velocity kinetic energy (Jin).

The speed or acceration over distance is the key.

Nei Jia focuses on posture and use the whole body to generate a Jin (Zhen Jin) and may not need a greater distance to work.

Shi Jin in Tai Ji is to walk to be close to the opponent's center of gravity and then push or pull the opponent's off his balance. Borrow a lot of the opponent's Jin. And only a small Jin from you.

Shi Jin means to store or to create a Jin.

Fa Jin is to release the "stored' Jin.

Tai Ji Shi Jin Lu Zhang Gong.

Fa Jin Si Fong Jian.

Tai Ji Shi Jin is like an extended bow.

Fa Jin is like a released arrow.

What is your style of Wushu?

How do you Shi Jin and Fa Jin in your school or system?

[Eric Ling]

Found this on Jin :-

Jin is the result of combining hardness (bones) and softness (tendons and qi) accurately. It involves the loosening of muscles, sinking of qi, contracting of tendons, and the extension of bones--all at the same time, and at the moment when they can work together to produce powerful force. As such, it requires a lot of techniques and responsiveness be able to control so many things so fast, and timing has to be very precise. Jin is an essential element of most internal martial arts.

Note that most internal martial arts focus on the training of tendons, as opposed to muscles. Even though tendons might be considered just a special form of muscles by medical professionals, they're vastly different from muscles when it comes to internal martial arts trainings. Many high-level martial artists don't appear to be very muscular due to their focus on tendons' trainings.

[Nataraya]

Wow Wanderer, it seems that you like to wander and jump around. As a foreigner I have problems with reading and interpreting what you write and mean. My excuse if I missed some points. First, are you launching questions and giving (some) answers at the same time? If so, then forget my answer……….

Generally: The principles as you described are - IMHO - common concepts used with different terms. Oh yes, for me Faat Geng is just one presentation of energy (Geng), there are MANY qualities/ presentations. But maybe you are asking for this Geng presentation specifically??

I prefer to speak about “energy” in general, then it’s up to you to add your quality to it. First of all at its very core, “energy” is neutral. It is us, our ideas, beliefs and concepts that attach a positive or negative meaning to its situation. Adjust your perspective and it all becomes just another experience that ‘you’ have created. In accepting the directed energy as neutral, we can remain calm and respond appropriately………………………<br>
Collecting and releasing are instruments in which we spent much time in Iron Wire Boxing (Tit Sin Kuen). In fact it will take many years to understand and refine such a concept. In our branch perfect communication between Mind - Body - Breath is needed. Several levels to pass before being successful. Then refinement are made from big circles to small to no circles. Meaning that posture/ action is needed in the beginning and that later no action will be enough.

Tension (Jeung) and relaxation (Chi) are very important aspects in the arts. Actually there are two qualities of relaxation - Chi and Sung – both should be known. The Sung is one of the vital tools in creating Geng.
Tension (Jeung) is being both to manipulate the flow of energy as well at the end of the action. Sorry that I fail in being specific, you can write a book about the framework. Okay, Mind - Body – and Breath need to be divided in subgroups to answer your question a little bit better. Body covers Pu Faat, Shen Faat and Sau Faat, all have contributions in the power supply. Interaction between the body parts is d**n important.

Warm regards.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Nataraya,

I am beginning to foresee a problem, especially if we are to discuss something as “deep” as jin here.

Our usage of different pronunciations/spellings for Chinese terminologies. You are obviously using Cantonese and Wanderer is using Hanyu.

Any chance for all of us to keep to Hanyu Pinyin especially in this “jin” section.

Thanks.

[Wanderer]

Good points.

Actually I started 3 leads without going into details.

The first lead is what is the difference between Nei and Wai Jia Quan.

The second lead is what is Shi Jin vs Fa Jin.

The third lead is what Tai Ji Jin is like as described by the Classics.

I did not answer or detail any of the leads yet.

Cantonese is fine with me. My college roommates: one from west Malaysia, 2 from Borneo and one from Hongkong. I listened to Cantonese for 5 years.

You are right, breathing or Qi flow is the first thing to practice, then movement practice and lastly Jin practice. Yes, there are 3 parts or tri-partite. I came to the states in late "80. It is indeed difficult to communicate Chinese stuff in English.

[Wanderer]

Relaxation vs tension.

N;

You are right. In Tai Ji, we have to relax all the way while yielding and neutralizing the opponent's Jin. We then redirect the Jin or follow and extend the opponent's Jin to guide and empty it. (Yin Jin Luo Kong)

Tension only occurs at the end. Even that is only for a short while.

For the most part, we are flexible and relaxed while moving.

Tai Ji believes that we have 5 bows in our body. The 2 arms, 2 legs and the back. (Wu Zhang Gong)

The largest tensions of the body are produced by extending these bows. They call it Peng Jin. Tai Ji is always about how to produce Peng.

There are 8 Jin methods in Tai Ji.

Peng Lui Jih Anh Tsai Lei Zhou Kao.

There are equivalent to 4 fronts (Si Zhen) and 4 corners (Si Yu).

Shi Jin may be positioning (Zhou Jin, walk Jin) and spiraling or coiling (silk reeling, Chan Si).

However, Fa Jin is still directional to 4 fronts and 4 corners.

[Nataraya]

Wanderer, we are facing the same problems with the English language. Thank God that I am not the only one. I will try to share some of my thoughts/ experience with you.

First question: What is the difference between internal and external boxing. The question is if you can make such a classification at all, but I must convince that I use this too for my students. For me everything have Grey scales. Some dark and some more brighten. Any high level External Boxing system have Internal work, and every Internal style have [start) with external work. To make it more visible; In Hung Kuen one starts with Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen and ends with Tit Sin Kuen. So from more external to internal, or from dark grey to light grey. In lama pai you will see the same things happen, also in Praying mantis, etcetera.
In case of Hung Kuen, when you start the second round – with Gung Ji again – then your Gung Ji will be more “internalized”, etc.

The second lead I find difficult due to the deeper meaning of the character Shi. If you translate it as gathering, collecting (Hei Cham Tan Tien), then we might talk about the same concept?

I do not think that the Classics are unique for Tai Chi. Depending upon the history I believe that all arts have had one root. Recently I did read Wayson Liao version of the Classics, but also in Jou Tsung Hwa’s book it is described clearly……… maybe others are able to answer that question for you.

My compliments about your knowledge of Tai Chi. I am afraid that I am not able to talk the same language. About Jin I can say this; also in rear leg Jin presentation we experienced the whole rage of explosions under our [rear] leg/ heels. Slow like in Yang style Tai Chi, up to a very explosive kind as experienced in White Eyebrow Boxing (Pak Mei Pai). In Iron Wire Boxing, the practitioner learns to launch any Jin responds, meaning different Jin qualities.

I find your “Five Bows” theory interesting. Is this different then the Nine Pearls or Six Harmonies? (In a way the trigger the thought of Seven Stars in my head).

Relaxation is the toughest thing for my students to apply, especially when you use the emotional drive behind an action.

Looking forward to your reply.

Warm regards,

[brad pitbull]

there can be a link between hard and soft-internal and external..and that is go chor kun or five ancestors boxing. other styles have them too...like ang ka kuen(last kata) i was told

[Wanderer]

Hi;

1) Yes. You are correct. There are both internal and external components for both Wai and Nei Jia Quan. However, there are still many different aspects in terms of Jin development and release mechanisms. If you punch and kick, you have to retract your fist and foot, recharge or reposition and re-release your Jin. Sort of go-come back and go again. There is a repeat in a line back and forth. These take time.

On the other hand, Tai Ji Chan Si for example, you draw a circle in front of you with your hand and forearm. The direction of Jin changes all the time in the circle. In the inner half, there is upward and outward Jin. In the outer half of the circle, there is a downward and inward Jin. You are constantly Shi Jin and Fa Jin in all directions in the circle. There is a continuation momentum. When you contact the opponent's punching arm, you merge into his Jin with ease and then your continuing circular moving Jin then pulls the opponent's forearm toward the direction you want (lead or guide).

2) Shi Jin in Tai Ji means all the Qi mobilization and preparatory moves before Fa Jin. To be in the right, you go to the left first. To be forward, you move backward first. This is the level 1 Tai Ji maneuver.

For example, to push the opponent forward, you pull backward a little, when the opponent is pulling himself back, you then move your front foot forward and push (+ the opponent's pulling Jin). He is off several feet.

Qi Zhen Dan Tien is absolutely needed as you nicely pointed out.

Sorry about the generalization and simplified examples above.

In short, there is still difference in Shi Jin and Fa Jin between Nei and Wai Jia Quan.

A lot of Shi Jin in Tai Ji is from steps and positionings.

[Nataraya]

Waysun Liao. “Tai Chi Classics’’. Shambala. 1977. ISBN. 0-87773-531-x

Page 71 – 81.

Jin(g) can be converted into thirty four specialized forms:

Sticking Power (Tzan Lien Jing),
Listening Power (Ting Jing),
Understanding Power (Tong Jing),
Following Power (Tzo Jing),
Neutralizing Power (Fa Jing),
Borrowing Power (Tzeh Jing),
Drawing up Power (Ying Jing),
Uprooting Power (Ti Jing),
Sinking Power (Chen Jing),
Controling Power (Na Jing),
Open- up Power (Kai Jing),
Close up power (Ho Jing),
Deflecting Power (Boh Jing),
Rubbing Power (Chou Jing),
Twisting Power (Jzeh Jing),
Rolling Power (Jen Jing),
Spiral Power (Dzuen Jing),
Cutting Power (Tze Jing),
Cold Power (Nung Jing),
Interrupting Power (Tuan Jing),
Inch Power (Chuen Jing),
Fine Power (Fuen Jing),
Vibrating Bouncing Power (Dow Tiao Jing),
Vibrating Power (Dow So Jing),
Folding Power (Tzo the Jing),
Distance Power (Ling Kong Jing)

[Wanderer]

Excellent posts.

Actually, there are more.

But your list covered the key ones.

1) Tin Jin, Dong Jin. You have to use a small Jin to test the direction of a large Jin. You listen and understand the direction and amplitude of the opponent's Jin.

2) Zhan Nien Lein Suei. (Contact, stick, and follow)

You contact with your forearm and remain in contact. You shadow the opponent's movement.

3) Hwa and Fa Jin. (neutralization and release Jin at the same time.) Only Tai Ji has this due to Chan Si Jin.

The main difference is that Tai Ji Jin may be storing without releasing. Wei Jia Quan once stored, the Jin has to be released first before other movement. Again because of Chan Si.

Chan Si Jin is the secret and reason of Tai Ji Jin.

Basically, all your Tai Ji movement and steps are Shi Jin (storing), when the opportunity occurs, Hm, it is released.

You are in the Yin a lot.

Shi Jin is Yin. Fa Jin is Yang.

Tai Ji is all about Chan Si (silk reeling).

Mantis has clear soft, hard, hidden soft and hard Jin. (Ming Rou, Ming Kong, An Rou and An Kong)

It is all about Jin.

[Wanderer]

N;

You listed so many good Jin topics.

1) Uprooting is from positioning and destroying the opponent's balance upward, downward, laterally left or right, forward and backward. In that sense, all Tai Ji moves are to uproot.

2) Kai Ho Jin are difficult to grasp concepts. When both hands are separating and expanding in the opposing directions, it is Kai (open and expand).
When both hands are moving close together, it is Ho (He) (close and contract).

This is not unique to Tai Ji. Northern boxing are big movements. They called it Da Kai Da Ho Da Pi Da Qua. (Big opening. Big enclosing. Big top downward. Big low upward)

However, Tai Ji Kai Ho are oriented like a ball and a circle. If the ball or the circle is getting bigger or smaller.

3) Interrupting Jin. Usually it means Lei. You apply a force that is horizontal to the direction of the opponent's Jin. You stopped the opponent's Jin and you may also break the opponent's joints.

4) Inch Jin. It happens when close contact. You may start with Peng, Ti then Anh, Zhou and Kao.

5) Tang Do Jin. This is how to do Tai Ji punch and kick. Actually, all Tai Ji moves start with soft and neutralizing, and end with a sudden circular move in the waist. Here comes out Tang Do.

Hew! Good list.

[Nataraya]

Something about Fa Jin or Faat geng:

I collected some extractions from other forums:

The technique of fa-jing lies in what the body does to cause the peripheral to be thrust out at great speed and power. It is not the strength of the triceps, or the laterals that cause the power, but rather the whole body. So it stands to reason, that a smaller person is able to generate much more power than a body builder who is only using his triceps to generate the power for the punch, by using his whole body. There is simply much more power in a whole body than in one triceps muscle.

If one could utilise the power generated from a sneeze, this would be perfect fa-jing. When we sneeze, the whole body reacts violently, not just one part, but the whole. We are unable even to keep our eyes open upon the act of sneezing. It is the same with fa-jing.

A different practitioner said:

Generally, in my experience with Wu style T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Fa means to explosively discharge energy, whether it is a wrist, elbow, forearm, hip, back or shoulder strike, punch, kick or a strike with a weapon, in forms or pushing hands, if it is done in a way that will transfer a kinetic wave into the opponent I have seen it referred to as Fa Ching.

Warm regards.

[Nataraya]

Wanderer,

I was able to find (and read) your replies on KFO, about this subject. My compliments about your level of understanding. I am more then pleased to communicate with you.

Please accept that my point of view is seen from a different perspective then Tai Chi, IMHO it is the same vehicle, only different words and paths. I will do my best to translate things as seen through the glasses of my lineage.

Something 'more' about Fa Jin and your Shi Jin. I was able to read some Tai Ji material and were able to see a parallel in what we are doing. In the seventies I did practice 6 years Cheng Man Ching version of Taio Chi, and this was mainly the form. Benjamin Lo and William Chen were the famous Tai Chi teachers in the Dutch seminars. I was able to follow a seminar with Jou Tsung Hwa, a grandmaster which I have DEEP respect for. Learned a lot during that weekend. Afterwards I mainly focused on Heigung (Qigong).

I see now that Fa and Shi are like Yin and Yang, inwards and outwards. I do understand what you mean now. My excuse for not seeing this earlier.

In Tit Sin Kuen we are collecting energy in the lower tantien, we use the Cantonese term of Chuk. Different character then in Tai Ji, but the same goal. In the beginning we collect by movements as created by tension (muscular activity). During the intermediate and advanced level the role of the mind, starts playing a more leading role. Then muscular tension plays more and more a minor role.
There are many ways to collect the chi towards the lower tantien: for instance, tapping, or rubbing, bringing your palms towards the lower abdomen (Yiu Fok), closing your eyes only, etceteras. In fact it become a ritual (un)seen. The fact that you practice this “closing” and “collecting” action over a long time, it become an automatic reaction.

Please conclude that collecting energy changed from external (muscular activity) to internal (mental activity. Again not Black & White, but all grey scales.

Fa Jin (Faat Geng):

I was clear in releasing power, the list that I put on this thread gives you an idea about the several presentations. That doesn’t mean that we cover all qualities, certainly not. In our case Tsun Geng (inch power) plays a leading role in both SaamTzien as Tit Sin Kuen.

Jin is linked with Li(k). What I am saying is that there is a link between Internal power and external (muscular power). I mean that I can increase my Jin/ Geng by training muscular power. Of course it is linked with a type of Geng, let’s say Bien Geng or whipping power. In this case speed play an important role. It is a very short explosion – felt in the rear leg - and transferred throughout the body, expressed in the hands. This short snapping power have a tremendous impact on your opponents body. The moment that it penetrates your opponents body, you need muscular activity to stop movement. If your muscular body is not trained enough, you will create damage around one of your joints. Like in Iron palm, the body need to absorb the explosion, with the help of the muscles.

In our case Jin/ geng is also linked with emotion and so with breathing. As mentioned earlier, the Four Feelings plays a leading role. Linked with the four feelings you will see that we are actually need to talk about the eight manifestations/ expressions. For instance; lets take “Anger”. Anger can be divided in Anger Yin and Anger Yang. Yin anger is the controlled anger, while Yang anger is violence or pure aggression. With Yang Anger you will see that a man run through a closed door. Intention is Sha/ Sat or kill. No matter how many people, how thick the wall is, just go with only one focus “Kill”. The energy that will be presented is that of a mental handicap person that break heavy leather bands. I think we all know of these stories.

Okay, enough. Every Feeling have a different manifestation of power, and so a direction of power, we can use in conflict. Crying/ weeping have an inwards orientated power, while elation have an outwards/ spreading power. And so we can direct the energy by an emotional state (image). Sorry for my incompleteness, but it is a very complex – but interesting – concept of TSK, which will be (once) written down in a book.

Okay, breathing works with tones. Rising, falling, high pitched sounds/ tones, etcetera. Sounds during inhalation and exhalation. It all have influence on your releasing power. Short explosive sounds, and long soft exhalations. Of course, each emotion/ feeling is linked with a pattern of breathing, and related top that, have influence on the releasing Geng.

So, where are we now. The process of collecting and releasing, are being used in many systems. Some schools/ systems put more emphasis on it. Releasing can be done in several qualities, Stuart Alv Olson discussed 64 qualities. And for me, a health system doesn’t release energy, but keep it in the system. A martial system does release the power in contact with your opponent.

Warm regards.


“ Water is the manifestation of Heaven”<br>

[Wanderer]

Excellent post and points.

Shi Jin is like storing your Qi, energy like a dam holding the water. The preparatory moves are from steps, muscular activity and Qi mobilization as you pointed out.

Fa Jin is like to release the gate of the dam and outpour the water.

Fa Jin in Nei Jia or Tai Ji is from the whole body as you pointed out in sneezing example.

Fa Jin is directional. In Tai Ji is 4 fronts (Si Zhen) and 4 corners (Si Yu).

Fa Jin is a balance act. That is the same in Wai Jia and Nei Jia.

Li or force is the outwardly expression of Jin.