Training using internal principles

[Supbatumgingsau]

Here's a topic for discussion.

Is it possible to train a hard external style (any hard external style) with internal principles straight away from the outset?

We know most chinese martial arts contain internal elements to varying degrees but is it possible to train with internal principles in mind while practising something that is conventionally seen as external? And if so, does doing this in people's opinion add to training or detract from it?

[TenTigers]

well, it depends on a few things-first, you need to define what exactly are you referring to when you say, "Internal principles"
Two-let me relate an experience I had, and am still having. I studied under several teachers in Hung Kuen.However, none of them taught any internal. Much of the connections I have gotten, I have done so through my own research, experimentation, and studying outside of my respective style. Then, I start training with my Si-Hing, re-learning all my major sets from square one. It is extremely internal oriented, Each movement is taught focusing on breath, alignment,and where the focus is energetically-which dan-tien, which channels, etc
Although I am no beginner (as much as anyone can claim not to be a beginner-we are always beginners) I found this method to be very enriching, meaning, I felt so much more substance. Is this because Ialready have experieance, and can now appreciate it? Would this be way too complicated for a rank beginner? Who knows? I suppose I can experiment when I teach this next and see the results.

[Supbatumgingsau]

You've got what I mean. I sometimes wonder, if many arts are taught incompletely (I hesitate to say the wrong way). If you had not experimented and then re-learned your sets in this fashion do you think your Hung-Kuen would have travelled down a different path? If you had been told and taught these things do you think your hung kuen would have changed or progressed much faster than it had? Certainly in Chow Gar tong long I fell it can, and I think two paths can be followed that lead to differing results. One that is very stiff and external looking and the other internal and more soong. Are there then two ways or is there only the one right way and the one wrong way despite both paths having been polished through the generations?

[TenTigers]

Frankly, I believe there is only one way, which is the internal, focusing on every minute detail, one step at a time. This is not the wat we are taught in this day and age and therin lies the rub. This is why Martial Arts has suffered.Itwas NEVER meant to be taught to the general public and was always taught through direct transmission, in a one on one hands on method.

[Supbatumgingsau]

I absolutely agree with you. I think it is near impossible to teach to large numbers and be able to teach effectively even when teaching correctly. Many aspects are difficult to explain as certainly in my experience a lot is based on a subjective sense of "feeling". You can feel your body linking internally, feel the redirection of forces, use of intention etc, things that cannot be seen readily or described in words easily. In order to get quality instruction with a concentration to detail, I agree with you, one on one instruction is needed.

In many ways such teaching makes me feel like a blind man wandering through with someone giving me vague directions. In that respect I think self development is a core principle in chinese martial arts, I suspect some readers may say that this is obvious, but I think its a point that has to be emphasised. The fighting aspect is only a small part of the art as a whole and if this is all that is focused on (as you see with many mixed martial arts etc..) I think you end up missing the whole point. I commend you on your own research and experimentaton because that is what is exactly needed if we are to try to learn the essence of the style we love and practice.

[TenTigers]

I have to also say, that my training in Jook Lum Nam Tong long is taught more internally. The sam bo ging form is emphasized for teaching the structure, the power, and the breath, and is a long,slow process. The form is taught without any tension, and only later is some added. I find this crucial in being then able to learn the hand of jook lum. Learning the jook lum body, then the hand, then...well let me get this first part down and I'll let you know. I have only been doing Jook Lum for about two years, so I don't have the knowledge yet. But it is one of the most rewarding (and frustration) journies I have ever taken.

[jeff]

I train in Hak Fu Mun (Blk Tiger) and we are taught from the start the importence of both. We are training both at the sametime, it is a big part of Blk Tiger training. It's a bit more difficult than what i'm use to, but i do see the difference.

jeff:)

[DRleungjan]

Hi there supbatumgingsau,

Hmmmm...interesting question.

As far as the art I train (Fat Sau Wing Chun) is concerned, it is an external art that is very internal. Even at the beginning stages the forms themselves prepare you for what I like to term as 'internalization'. One of the euphemisms upon translation for our Siu Lin Tau is 'The Little Transmutation' because of such.

Once we achieve such then the proper structure, energies, torque, etc. are refined as we progress in our training. I have a long ways to go though, but can can see the differences of, let's say, my techniques as oppossed to that of my sihings when they 'internalize' their techniques...sort to speak.

It's is without saying that both external and internal are very important. We are taught just the same as jeff stated in his post.


regards,
DRleungjan