High kicks - effective in real fights ?

[Eric Ling]

Hi folks,

Do you think high kicks are really effective in real fights.

Let's discuss and no fighting!

Thank you.

[pitbull]

been in many fights since school days and no hi kicks were made so i cant comment...but the stright side kick really is amazing when timed correctly

[Eric Ling]

Okay, got to start this post on a sad note. How many of you read about the 19 year old kid who died in a “Sports” karate tournament in Singapore back a few years ago?

Tze Hou, you might be aware of this. A Singapore National Karate tournament held in Toa Payoh Indoor Stadium.

The deceased, a Shi-To Ryu Robert Tan’s student, caught a “mae-geri” in the chest and collapsed.

Kicks are really devastating in a fight situation.

But high kicks are something that I use sparingly. I don’t really like the high side-kicks. I do more the Muay Thai style turning kick with a swing rather than a snap.

Most times, I kick the knees, groin (in a do or die situation), chest and the flanks.

The one kick that I do a lot is the Wing Chun stamping kick because it allows the hands to still work.

The other would be using the knee.

And again, I must say, I don’t really like to kick high.

That’s just me.

Thank you.

[essence]

Eric said:

Okay, got to start this post on a sad note. How many of you read about the 19 year old kid who died in a “Sports” karate tournament in Singapore back a few years ago?

Tze Hou, you might be aware of this. A Singapore National Karate tournament held in Toa Payoh Indoor Stadium.

The deceased, a Shi-To Ryu Robert Tan’s student, caught a “mae-geri” in the chest and collapsed.

Good day Eric.

That does ring a bell, I think it was on the news? I may have heard it through my cousin otherwise.

I feel that high kicks usually aren't effective in a fight situation for a few reasons.

1) A high kick usually gives away signs to the opponent due to the body telegraphing the moment which then lets the opponent react.

2) Usually to be an effective K.O., the kick must land on the head/face region which is hard to do, especially in a fight situation.

3) Fights are usually close together (not sparring or ring fighting). The proximity between the two fighters is very close, making high kicks very hard to execute.

4) It is harder to time an effective high kick, rather than say, a palm to the nose.

5) Issuing a high kick leaves you to open to someone who can read you, allowing them to counter in numerous ways, breaking your standing knee, punch to ribs/kidney, sweeps and more.

Now, although those theories hold true for me, they may not be the same for someone who practices high kicking (kickboxing, TKD and other assorted kicking MA). These people, especially TKD condition themselves to whip out high kicks at short distances and the number of kicks they can whip out at short notice is quite an eye-opener. I suppose in this situation, the explosiveness of the attack might allow you to connect with a few kicks.

Personally, I feel the same as Eric, prefering to issue short round-house kicks (Muay Thai style) to the hamstring or knee areas. I am also starting to really explore stance work, with all its hidden low gate attacks which can be really devastating if issued with the distraction to the upper gates, allowing you to trip/sweep/break the knee.

I don't know if this is considered a high kick, but the famous Mo Ying Keurk (Wu Ying Jiao) is a kick to the stomach/dantien/bladder area, done with a Crane like technique with the hands which can be used to break a hold, attack the face or just a plain distraction. I think this may be effective against someone who doesn't know what he is up against. If done against someone who knows exactly what it leads to, then it could spell trouble for you.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[konghan]

High kicking is usually good only in a one on one situation & one has to be train properly to use the high kick.

Even a soccer player who uses a high kick in a fight would often find themselves down on the ground & getting swarm.

Sidekick to the midsection or rib cage is my favorite it can break or frcuture the ribs at the same time the side kick is good in counter attacking & a good technique against the MT round house.

The side kick allows your body to be a smaller target. The side kick can go for the rfib cage, kidney hip area, knees or shin ankle area.

[Hungfist]

In my early days of Hung Gar training, I learned to 'attack' legs that were high kicking. They seemed like blocks to me, at first. Through instruction I was taught that seldom did we block - we were attacking the leg or arm instead.

I seldom high kick, and never during a 'fight'. I train to kick high - for flexability, but generally wind up kicking like most others posted, ribs occasionally, knees, groin, etc.

I have sparred TKD and some of them had amazing speed and accuracy - but I was never kicked where it mattered, even in full pads - but in all honesty, I never sparred a teacher of TKD.

Do high kicks work, I am sure they could, if you train them properly, but the time it takes to raise your leg could really hurt you in a fight, if you're fighting someone who is trained as well.

I seem to recall the old saying, 'I wont hit your foot, dont kick my face.' or something like that.

[Fatman]

There is a time and a place for every technique. If there is the opportunity to safely land a high kick, why not take it?

[Charles DaCosta]

I saw a K-1 (or what ever -- they grab and through to the ground):

The guy from Holand hick to the head and knock his opponent out. I saw a round kick to the face do this several times (I think the guys using this technique were tai boxers).

On a personel note, I used to use high kicks a lot, now I am an old man and don't spar any more. I was trained in northen Chinese styles and Okinawian Goju so we had no training restrictions on them and trained them as much as we trained basic punching (every day ...). In my Shaolin class we used them a lot during sparing (including low kicks and sweeps).

The only problem with being a leg technition (e.g., kicking high) is that it requires more endurance and are a little slower. The advantages are that your techniques will be more powerfull and cover a longer range.

[Seeker]

As a Wing Chun guy, you will not be surprised by my take on this -- that high kicks (what I would call kicks targeting anything above the midsection) have limited street-fight effectiveness against someone who is trained.

I will qualify this by saying that my encounters with high-kickers have been almost exclusively Tae Kwon Do, and not especially well-trained at that. I will also say that while I had many "real" fights in my younger high school/college days, I don't go around fighting in the street anymore.

I think that high kicks in competitive fighting is a different matter, and since i don't involve myself with that, i will not comment.

I am open to the possibility that there are high kickers (TKD and otherwise) who are blindingly fast, but I have never encountered one. (not entirely true - Ling has shown me some highish kicks that are scary!) The old saying of "I wouldn't punch you in the foot, so why would I kick you in the head?" makes perfect sense to me in my experience. High kicks are clearly telegraphed, and easily intercepted or evaded. In my old Wing Chun school, we had very many TKD guys come through thinking their kicks were super-cool and effective, and every single one of these guys were easily countered by even our junior students.

I don't mean to offend any of the high-kickers out there, and I would love to play with someone who has truly fast high kicks, but i think they must be very rare.

[Hungfist]

I remember in the Olympics this year, the Gold Medalist (heavyweight I think) in TKD was a Korean that knocked out the Greek (who was like 6'5") with a kick to the jaw.

At the level they were fighting, I dont think it was a lucky strike either.

Of course, that wasnt a street fight.

[Seeker]

Like i said -- I'm not trying to denegrate any of the high kickers in the world (i'd rather not have them knock my block off with their flying feet!), I am only speaking from the experience of dealing with TKDers in particular both in high school scraps and more recently, in the controlled play-fighting in the Wing Chun kwoon. Where i went to high school (New Orleans), there were a large number of Korean immigrants, many of whom were allegedly well-trained in TKD. I personally saw these guys kick the hell out of other guys who had never trained (or really fought) before. I also saw these same TKDers occassionally really fu*%ed up by guys who were not at all intimidated by them, and just rushed right in between kick attempts to jam up the TKDers ability to kick. The fights then almost always ended up with the TKD guy on the ground, getting his face pounded.

My experience in the kwoon is more or less the same. Once the gap has been bridged with the TKDers, they seemed nearly helpless to even basic hand work and were quickly dispatched.

Maybe it comes down to the same line of discussion seen earlier in the Wu Shu thread. TKD is arguably one of the most commercialized martial arts in the U.S. The quality of training that many get in the TKD world is probably quite lacking and doesn't include other critical aspects of training fighters.

Who would you rather have covering your back in a nasty bar fight: a guy with 10 years of TKD but with no fighting "spirit," or a guy who's never trained in a kwoon of any kind before but who has that special "fire" in his eyes? Give me the one with fire any day - i'll trust in his ability to improvise and to get the job done.

[Hungfist]

Seeker said:

Who would you rather have covering your back in a nasty bar fight: a guy with 10 years of TKD but with no fighting "spirit," or a guy who's never trained in a kwoon of any kind before but who has that special "fire" in his eyes? Give me the one with fire any day - i'll trust in his ability to improvise and to get the job done.

I totally agree with this...I have sparred TKD with some pretty good kickers, but never had a problem with them and never was kicked well enough to matter.

[Seeker]

Hungfist:

Out of curiosity, what is your main system?

I ask because I wonder what is your strategy/tactic in dealing with the high kicker?

Chas

[Hungfist]

Seeker said:

Out of curiosity, what is your main system?

I practice Hung Gar, CLF.

I ask because I wonder what is your strategy/tactic in dealing with the high kicker?

Punish the leg.

[Eric Ling]

Hungfist said:

I remember in the Olympics this year, the Gold Medalist (heavyweight I think) in TKD was a Korean that knocked out the Greek (who was like 6'5") with a kick to the jaw.

At the level they were fighting, I dont think it was a lucky strike either.

Of course, that wasnt a street fight.

That high kick are used to very good results in competitions and ring fights is unquestionable.

I’ve seen enough Muay Thai bouts in to tell you that. Even in my own competition days, I love kicking high – usually the jumping back thrust

But street fights – that’s another ball game. Say what you like, competitions are controlled environment. You roughly know what to expect.
Unless, of course, if you are talking “underground’ fights, which are nothing more than organized “street fights”.

Street fights – well anything goes and no hold-barred is totally something else.

I’ve been in enough street fights (latest being just barely 6 months ago here in Sarawak) to say that high kicks are not my immediate tools.

If I confined myself to Muay Thai’s arsenal, I would much rather be doing my knees and jumping elbows.

And my White Crane kick to the groin - the one kick that I would use in any situations.hehehehe