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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 8:25:54 GMT -5
Good day Eric. I have heard of Cannon Fists but have never seen this, I heard this is the "most aggressive and attack oriented" Tai Chi form. Tze Hou Methinks this is the clearest evidence that Chen Tai Chi is a derivative of Shaolin. Cannon Fists is so Lohan that certain portion is indiscernible, really. And if you, like me, agree that Chen Tai Chi is the initial Tai Chi then that would make Tai Chi a off-spring of Shaolin. Chen Jia Kuo, the Chen family ancestral home, is more or less recognized as the birthplace of most Tai Chis. Notice I said most, for in recent years, another stand-alone Tai Chi emerged from China. And that is Wu-Dang Tai Chi.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 8:32:53 GMT -5
For Hung Kuen practitioners it is the play - within the 3 gates and 5 doors - Evert, must have missed description of your 3 gates/5 doors, Care to go at it again - sorry. Love to compare Cantonese/Fukien minds about this idea. Thank you my friend.
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Post by essence on Nov 21, 2004 8:42:45 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
I am not familiar with the history of Tai Chi, not that I am not interested, just that I have not been exposed to people who talk about it. I do know of the Yang, Chen and Sun style.
You say most styles acknowledge that Chen style as the founder, but I think there is rivalry between Yang and Chen as to which is the founding style? I am not sure about this though and I apologise if I have said anything wrong.
We can play, but I am afraid I might not live up to your expectations, I will do my best though.
Making me more excited everyday. Cannot wait for the time to come.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by essence on Nov 21, 2004 8:46:39 GMT -5
Good day Evert.
Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Golden Scissors is not so in depth, it is at best, superficial knowledge and application. I have also heard from many places that the Golden Scissors is very important in Hung Gar. I will ask my Sifu more regarding this matter.
At the moment now, Golden Scissors only appear as a block, a way to break a hold on your collar and a break on the elbow. I have a hard time thinking of how else to apply this technique.
Any other ways you would suggest for me to play with to find more applications for this technique?
I also do not understand the 3 gates and 5 doors, could you explain this in further detail please?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 21, 2004 9:26:46 GMT -5
The theory of five doors are the four directions; North, East, South, West and above (Heaven). With above I mean for instance a hammer fist downwards on your head, Bai Hui Xue. The three gates is a common model or levels of attack; low middle, high. For the advanced we refine this basic model with another three levels. Example extend your Kiu Sau, and then you have the wrist, elbow skin level. Finally the terms Inner and Outer Door and seeing all the little windows gives the practitioner a better image in how to introduce penetration in his play.
Warm regards,
Evert.
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Post by Charles DaCosta on Nov 21, 2004 14:53:10 GMT -5
Methinks this is the clearest evidence that Chen Tai Chi is a derivative of Shaolin. Cannon Fists is so Lohan that certain portion is indiscernible, really. And if you, like me, agree that Chen Tai Chi is the initial Tai Chi then that would make Tai Chi a off-spring of Shaolin. Chen Jia Kuo, the Chen family ancestral home, is more or less recognized as the birthplace of most Tai Chis. Notice I said most, for in recent years, another stand-alone Tai Chi emerged from China. And that is Wu-Dang Tai Chi. Eric, I still think your a good teacher .. OK .. fun too so I can’t resist Chas Cannon Fists is an advance Chen form/exercise. Wu Dong and the Chen Family have different histories for taichi. I have never compared the two to see if they are different styles. However, I think if they were different, time has merged them (principles at least). And, if I remember my history correctly, I think the first style/form, Chang Chuan, was a Shaolin art. Wu Dong history claims that it was modified to follow Taoist principles. This is what gave birth to taichi. I will have to do some research. I can’t remember if the Chen family had any connection to Shaolin or Wu Dong.
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Post by Charles DaCosta on Nov 21, 2004 15:02:34 GMT -5
Hehehe, Time to monkey around . Do you think all that tumbling, rolling, jumping etc etc really work in real fights ? Before you crucify me, I must let you know I do Shaolin monkey - Fukien style. In fact, when I was teaching monkey in Denver, I did a jump and slide body on floor movement. Lost my footing on the soft cushion in the school and landed in the wrong position. Broke my right wrist - occupational hazard hehehehe. But that did not scare Chas into stopping monkey kung fu training. So your take? Can the monkey fight ? ps. Chas, you're banned from participating in this thread. You know too much in this area.hehehehe ;D ;D ;D If your not an experienced fighter and you want to learn to fight with money style, don't start out with the wu shu version ;D Save that for when you are allready gooooddd I know, I know, just could not resist. ;D
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Post by pitbull on Nov 21, 2004 17:45:49 GMT -5
all those unorthodox techniques in monkey is for its advantage,forcing the opponent to play by the monkeys rules...i personally like monkey very much buts its just not for me...the doggie is more my taste :-) besides,its a rare and interesting style
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 18:04:29 GMT -5
Hi Tze Hou, The rivalry should not be. Yang Lu Chang, founder of Yang's Tai Chi, was a student in Chen Jia Kuo.
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Fatman
Full Member
Large Member
Posts: 137
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Post by Fatman on Nov 21, 2004 18:14:44 GMT -5
I have mucked around with using monkey in sparring. It is definitely hard to use, and very tiring but my opponents have said it is hard to fight against too because it is so unorthodox.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 18:30:18 GMT -5
Hey Tze Hou, Got some pixs of Chen Tai Chi for you. All movements are captured from Cannon Fists. The performer in blue is so fast and explosive that he looks like he is boucing off the ground into the air. If you compare this with Siao Lim Lohan, you will find the parallel. You lift you front knee, step down and bounce off the ground is how many "Big" Lohan techniques are executed.
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Post by essence on Nov 21, 2004 19:33:13 GMT -5
You lift you front knee, step down and bounce off the ground is how many "Big" Lohan techniques are executed. Good day Eric. I can visualise what you said very easily. One question though is why bounce off the ground? When we practice palming techniques, my Sifu always says you rise to deliver the power to "come away" from the force. What is this principle and why is it like that? Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by essence on Nov 21, 2004 19:35:58 GMT -5
The theory of five doors are the four directions; North, East, South, West and above (Heaven). With above I mean for instance a hammer fist downwards on your head, Bai Hui Xue. The three gates is a common model or levels of attack; low middle, high. For the advanced we refine this basic model with another three levels. Example extend your Kiu Sau, and then you have the wrist, elbow skin level. Finally the terms Inner and Outer Door and seeing all the little windows gives the practitioner a better image in how to introduce penetration in his play. Warm regards, Evert. Good day Evert. Ah I see now. Thank you for explaining. Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 20:36:49 GMT -5
Hi Tze Hou,
This is what we call "Ren Dao Shou Dao" - when I reach you, my hand touches you.
So, in a way, you could say this is more about explosive speed. Remember how Bruce Lee moved, you see him close-in and his leading hand connects straightaway.
Your Karate Sensei, Robert Tan, is an expert in this. In sport karate, the front hand scoring is taken to very high level.
Robert was APUKO champ for many years.
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Post by essence on Nov 22, 2004 0:45:57 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
I understand what you mean by explosive force. I think I can visualise what you are talking about, but it is different from what my Sifu talks about.
What my Sifu says is when you make contact using a palm technique, you rise physically. Picture yourself landing a palm on technique with your knees slightly bent, on contact, you rise a bit (not exaggerated) by unbending your knees. I do not understand why we must do this, is there any theoretical explanation behind this? He has said it is something to do with shocking power, how does this happen?
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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