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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 19, 2004 18:22:06 GMT -5
Hehehe,
Time to monkey around .
Do you think all that tumbling, rolling, jumping etc etc really work in real fights ?
Before you crucify me, I must let you know I do Shaolin monkey - Fukien style.
In fact, when I was teaching monkey in Denver, I did a jump and slide body on floor movement. Lost my footing on the soft cushion in the school and landed in the wrong position. Broke my right wrist - occupational hazard hehehehe. But that did not scare Chas into stopping monkey kung fu training.
So your take? Can the monkey fight ?
ps. Chas, you're banned from participating in this thread. You know too much in this area.hehehehe ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Suhana LIM on Nov 19, 2004 19:32:46 GMT -5
Hehehe, Time to monkey around . Do you think all that tumbling, rolling, jumping etc etc re Broke my right wrist - occupational hazard hehehehe. So your take? Can the monkey fight ? Eric ni hao A bit late, the year of the monkey almost finished ;D But not the hou chien or kao kun (monkey fist)! Remember the movie "Monkey Fist" with Chen Kuan Tai ? Kao kun is one of the other styles that contributed in Ngo Cho. With its jumping around movements. Khut khay is one of the kao kun signature. Cheers.
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Post by essence on Nov 19, 2004 20:49:04 GMT -5
Good day everybody.
Not too sure regarding this, but I think the jumping and general "monkeying" around instead of the mainstream facing off would be something hard to defend against due to the unpredictability.
I am sure this style would be efficient in a fight, "Ge You Qian Chiu", everything is good in its own way.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 20, 2004 3:29:17 GMT -5
Hi Tze Hou, Very good – you provided a “safe” answer. There are many way to categorize kung fu fighting methodologies. Broadly we have:- • Hard/soft styles • Internal/external styles • Hands oriented styles • Feet oriented styles There is, however, another scheme of categorization and that is by the “gates” focus. Gates are broken down into these:- Upper gate – head and throat. Middle gate – chest to the dantien area. Lower gate – dantien all the way down to the feet. These are the often heard 3 gates or 3 inner gates. The 4th gate refers to the side outer gates, both left and right to your back. It also refers to your inner gates but at an oblique angle to your centerline. The 5th gate is your back from the top of your head to kidney area. The 6th gate is your back from kidney to the feet. Different styles specialize in different gates attack/defense. Of course, I am not suggesting that they confined themselves to these gates but they are most “lethal” in certain gates. Take Wing Chun for instance, renowned for 2 gates simultaneous attack. They love to punch you in the face and do their “Wing Chun” stamping kick to your knee/shin. Tai Chor is another 2 gates attack biased system. A whole series of “father leads and son follows” double hands attack techniques. A classic technique would be, for example, using the right outer forearm and left vertical punch together in a forward driving manner. The left fist below the right forearm. This technique is also done in Yau Kun Mun and Bai Mei. Evert? My White Crane likes to take every engagement to the 4th gate. 2 entire forms assembled to teach just this methodology. Shaolin Monkey is unique in the sense that it specializes in lower gate, 5th and 6th gate fighting strategies. Not easy to play with them if you don’t understand how they fight. Say you are a punch/kick person used to stand up situations. Now you have an opponent who is crouching on the floor. You kicking arsenal is effectively reduced to low kicks. And to punch, you have to sink. Exactly what a monkey stylist wants you to do – controlling your attack capabilities. The other interesting feature of Monkey boxing is the Chin Na. Very intricate and sometimes using the legs to lock opponent’s hand and even neck. And biting. If they catch your attacking, say right hand, they would twist it counterclockwise (from your perspective). Now with your arm twisted they would bite your right hand at the finger joints. This technique in Shaolin Monkey Kung Fu is called “ Spiritual Monkey eating Peach”. Usually after biting you in the hand, they would kick your groin. Talk about “no mercy” kung fu!
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 20, 2004 20:50:31 GMT -5
Hi folks, Evert, our Database Master, sent 2 pix from his library. 1 picture from Lung Ying and the other from Bak Mei. Variations of "father leads and son follows" hand techniques.
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Post by essence on Nov 20, 2004 21:21:41 GMT -5
Tai Chor is another 2 gates attack biased system. A whole series of “father leads and son follows” double hands attack techniques. A classic technique would be, for example, using the right outer forearm and left vertical punch together in a forward driving manner. The left fist below the right forearm. Now with your arm twisted they would bite your right hand at the finger joints. Good day Eric. The movement described in Tai Chor, the left fist would be in an uppercut position? My Sifu has created a punching exercise which has this position as well, with the emphasis that the left arm is blocking followed by the right arm uppercut, and repeated again on the opposite side. Is biting only found in Monkey Style? I know it is possible to say that biting can be done in any style, but what I mean is, is biting only taught in Monkey? Very interesting style. I have never thought of biting figers before, I suppose this is to break the joints at the finger. It has got me thinking about breaking finger joints because I have never been exposed to this concept before. Is this considered unorthodox? Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 0:32:37 GMT -5
Hey Tze Hou,
The technique you described sounds like “Meteors Chasing the Moon” – more a quick hands continuous technique rather than double hands one-go strike.
I think there is a Hung Gar’s version in Fu-Hoc also.
Biting as far as I am aware is done mainly in Kao Kun. The technique that I mentioned earlier, after you twist your opponent’s arm and lift it slightly, his fist normally opens. You are actually biting the fingers.
Got some friends in Silat Monyet and they do biting in many of their techniques.
I think it is important for me to emphasize that there are, in existence, a few different kind of monkey boxing:-
1. Tai Sheng Pek Kua – Kuo Shi’s style. Hong Kong was the hub of this. 2. Liao Wu Chang’s monkey – looks like a Northern/Southern hybrid. Done mainly in Taiwan. 3. Fukien Monkey – This was seldom done outside Fukien and it is not certain whether this style in still around. Recent publications from China talks about this and I have seen some forms. Quite unexpectedly, they don’t look very “monkey”. Maybe Yi focus rather than Hsing. 4. Ching Cheng Pai Daoist Monkey – starting to make an appearance outside China in recent years. 5. Er-Mei Monkey boxing – often mistaken for Wushu’s Monkey boxing because they really look similar. Some Hong Kong friends explained that this is because Wushu planners “borrowed” from Er-Mei monkey. 6. Shiao Lim Hood Pai or Sek Koh Sum monkey. The late Ven. Sek was from 2nd Chamber Fukien Shiao Lim kung fu so his Kao Kun is really of a different flavor. Southern stream but yet a cut apart form typical Southern Kung Fu except maybe Fukien Dog Fukien.
When I talk about monkey boxing fighting principles, I am talking #6 – the style that I did.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 2:22:22 GMT -5
Hi Tze Hou, Got some pixs of Ching Cheng Pai's Daoist Monkey for you. Look at the 3rd pix, the person is doing a " monkey feeding" technique. He is pulling something towards him and then you see him chew away. If you have Kao Kun videos, look out for these feeding movements. Or better still, if you have poems, look for explanation in the poems. Thanks.
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 2:39:47 GMT -5
Good day Eric. The movement described in Tai Chor, the left fist would be in an uppercut position? My Sifu has created a punching exercise which has this position as well, with the emphasis that the left arm is blocking followed by the right arm uppercut, and repeated again on the opposite side. Very interesting style. I have never thought of biting figers before, I suppose this is to break the joints at the finger. It has got me thinking about breaking finger joints because I have never been exposed to this concept before. Is this considered unorthodox? Warmest regards, Tze Hou Sorry Tze Hou, Did not really answer your 2 questions. 1. No not in an uppercut but more like an extended forearm elbow strike. Are you familiar with Chen Tai Chi’s Cannon Fists? – a little like that except using different stance work. Tai Chor does this in San Chiem Bei. Actually the technique looks close to the pix Evert sent, the Bak Mei pix, but done at face-level. 2. Finger joints breaking is done all the times in my Ancestral Crane’s Bridge Breaking principles. We do “Lei Kong Chiew” and the objective is to break opponent’s bridge. One fav spot is the fingers at the joints. From far, we look like doing “Chi Sao” or even push hand. The difference is the intent. The concept is kind of like in certain Cantonese styles – “Why block when you can break?”. Your Sifu talk about this?
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 2:55:38 GMT -5
With its jumping around movements. Khut khay is one of the kao kun signature. Cheers. Kor Kor , tell me what is Khut Khay? You know I blur sotong - the only khay I know is "Kok Kok Khay". ;D ;D ;D
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Post by essence on Nov 21, 2004 3:25:39 GMT -5
1. No not in an uppercut but more like an extended forearm elbow strike. Are you familiar with Chen Tai Chi’s Cannon Fists? – a little like that except using different stance work. Tai Chor does this in San Chiem Bei. Actually the technique looks close to the pix Evert sent, the Bak Mei pix, but done at face-level. 2. Finger joints breaking is done all the times in my Ancestral Crane’s Bridge Breaking principles. We do “Lei Kong Chiew” and the objective is to break opponent’s bridge. One fav spot is the fingers at the joints. From far, we look like doing “Chi Sao” or even push hand. The difference is the intent. The concept is kind of like in certain Cantonese styles – “Why block when you can break?”. Your Sifu talk about this? Good day Eric. I have heard of Cannon Fists but have never seen this, I heard this is the "most aggressive and attack oriented" Tai Chi form. My Sifu actually does emphasise joint breaks quite a bit, most of these breaks are actually Chin Na techniques which are applicable as a joint lock taken one step further to ensure no retaliation. Funny thing, today during my training session, my Sifu actually made us train the Golden Scissors which is a simple technique with the 2 arms raised vertically and coming together. He made us practice this in the form of an elbow break to an incoming punch. I have never heard of this saying before, but it is certainly a major focus in our training. However, due to the orientation of the training, we focus mainly on elbow breaks, forearm breaks, ribs and collar bone. My Sifu likes to remind us that when we block, we aim to break the forearm with the first block, like you said, "why block when you can break?" However, we have not been taught to break fingers before, which makes me think this is very unusual as breaking the fingers would very effective, and should be easier to break than elbows or shoulders. Maybe I need to look at my techniques more in depth, there probably is something to do with this that I have overlooked. Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 4:51:31 GMT -5
Hey Tze Hou,
The “Golden Scissors” sounds like “Celestial Lord Waving Fans”. I am surprised that you said this is not commonly done. This technique is spread over many Southern styles both Fukien/Cantonese.
Another very common drill is “Khim Khar” or to grab and knock. Standard Shao Lim basic drill which is also done in White Crane. I believe you do it NCK too.
But I think the misconception is to do a block very hard to break as proposed in some martial arts.
1. To break you must know WHERE to hit and not simply smash haphazardly. Picture a boxer with his fast hands and for you to try and smash a jab is asking for trouble. Sometimes you don’t “smash” but rather create a “wall” to do the breaking using opponent’s own energy. 2. HOW to break. Even in “hard” Shaolin, the case is not trying to be harder to break. Not much of an art if that is all you are trying to do.
Very hard to explain using words. When we meet, I will show you some techniques from my Fuzhou Ancestral Crane pertaining to this.
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Post by essence on Nov 21, 2004 5:26:35 GMT -5
Good day Eric.
My Sifu does make us practice Golden Scissors, but not as much as he focuses on Tiger techniques. In fact, these days, he focuses even more on breathing and learning to be soft than anything else, incorporating a lot of Ba Kwa and Tai Chi principles.
I understand what you mean by not always smashing in order to break. My Sifu does teach some methods where you yield first before you apply a joint lock/break, but he always says, if possible, when your opponent throws the first punch, use your block to attack his bridge and try to end the fight there and then.
If, by meaning not to be harder in order to break you mean yielding before applying Chin Na techniques I understand what you mean. If it means something else, I need you to explain to me.
However, I do not understand the principle of creating a wall in order to break. I would love for you to show me how to apply this principle.
Warmest regards, Tze Hou
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Post by Eric Ling on Nov 21, 2004 8:13:06 GMT -5
Okay Tze Hou, What I am trying to say is that breaking is not really about who is harder. It is really more about knowing where and how to break. Yes, you could say “yielding” plays a role, like in the throwing arts; you yield in order to facilitate the throws. So likewise, sometimes you need to yield to break. Remember the Bruce Lee and Chunk Norris fight scene in “Enter the Dragon”? At the end of the fight, Bruce Lee did a “break” on Chuck Norris wrist by deflecting and slicing. Sort of like your “Golden Scissors” but taking out the wrist instead of the elbow. Bruce Lee probably got this from his exposure to Filipino’s fighting systems through Inosanto. The Filipino has got quite a range of these “de-fanging the cobra” techniques. In Fuzhou Crane, we do 8 arm and 5 leg breaking concepts. Together these are called the “13 methods of Breaking Bridge” or “Siak San Phwhy Qiu Chiew” in Fuzhou dialect. Sorry, I don’t want to talk too much about this here. When we meet, we’ll play – promise.
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Post by Nataraya on Nov 21, 2004 8:23:17 GMT -5
As Eric explains, Golden Scissor Hand (Sap Tji Sau/ Shi Zi Shou, Gam Jin Sau/ Jin Jian Shou, or Tien Wong Yiu Sin/ Tian Wang Yao Shan) is a skill, that plays a leading role in many systems. And absolutely in Iron Wire Boxing and Hung Kuen. There are specific poems that accentuate the importancy of this skill; “without scissors, skills are blunt and useless.” I absolutely agree with this old poem, and can’t motivate my students enough to research all possible options. Golden Scissor is about opening (Hoi/ Kai) and closing (Hap/ He), and directly related of course, about [high] tension (Jeung/ Zhang) and releasing (Chi/ Chi)*. This not only technically, but also in a dynamical meaning (mind). It covers the Faat/ Fa and can present it selves - during the Hoi – Chi stage as; “Dividing Golden Bridge” or ““Draw Bow Shooting Arrow”. Important is that the student need to learn to discover every variation on the three gates, and towards the five doors. Then the walking hands starts and it is here that you can capture/arrest your enemy, this of course depends on how they move. For Hung Kuen practitioners it is the play - within the 3 gates and 5 doors - that brings specific actions into play such as;. Geng/ Jin, Kiu Sau/ Qiao Shou and Kiu Sau Faat/ Qiao Shou Fa. Finally the gates and doors will gives the (advanced) player an option to knock on the deepest layer of your opponent, which are in fact smaller areas on the physical body.
Maybe it is food for another thread, but Eric tell us about this skill in Monkey Boxing, Crane Boxing, and other Fukien styles………..
Warm regards,
Evert.
*Note: Zang & Chi have both a bow radical.
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