Hung Gar Techniques.

[Eric Ling]

essence said:

Good day Evert and Eric.

Thank you for those pictures. As yet, I have not been taught the form, but to me, this form looks utilises a lot of spear techniques. I also noticed that the pole is thinner and longer. Is this a misconception?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

Hi Tze Hou,

Yes, NLPKK is adapted from spear fighting. Evert would probably have something different to say about this. He is crazy, so be kind, forgive him.hehehe

The story that I got from Hung Gar folks in Singapore is that NLPPK is modified from Yang Jia Spear. Wu-Lang was the one who married the 5th daughter of the Yang’s family.

Yes, you are also right in saying that the pole is longer and tapered at one end. In others words, a single-end or rat’s tail pole.

A beautiful and very practical pole form IMHO.

[Eric Ling]

Hey Tze Hou.

The 2 Chiu's clips are available in another website - can't remember which now.

Anyway, posting some old pictures of Chiu Family in Hong Kong.

[Nataraya]

Rat tail stick is the same as the eight feet stick. there are even longer sticks, Wing Chun is such an example. We have three eight feet stciks in our curriculum of which lau ga kwan is the basic one. But this basic version covers the most important keywords and is very nice to do. Thanks to Russ, I was able to observe another version (Kwong Wing Lam) and his version is longer then ours. Also the execution of power and transistionings are just different. Due to the background of our ancestors, and affinity with........

The Fifth general yang stick is the classical one, and done in all Hung Kuen branches. very important stick with a beautiful flow. Tze Hou you must look forward to study this skill. Finally we have Mui Fa kwan, a stick set that came from the Tit Kiu Sam lineage. Long and complex with some uniques skills in it. But tough to practice and refined, is my experience. You need a lot of space, due to the jumpings and truning actions too.

It is a fact that the basic skills are that of spearfighting. No way that you can deny that, even I can't because the dragon actions are therem absolutely! But it is not all spear, in a way you recognize the more basic stick techniques in between, which feel good and you have the idea that the function of 'spearplay' did improve. Nothing more then RESPECT for the final choreography of that beautiful form.

(Ba Fen) Sei Ping Ma, or eight shifts to fall in Horse Stance. I am not your teacher, and you are starting to walk. Basics will create power and the 'touch/ feel". Once yuo have passed this staion you can play with 'sensation', and who knows you experience that a horse stance is not neccesary anymore? The pictures of grandmaster Lai, at high age (1917), you can not take as an ultimate stage.

My feets are not parrallel, but I had to do that to when I was young. There must be a kind of tension in your lower legs/ shin area. My sisok Chan told me this and corrected me in February again. I can understand that, and it explain that I need to spent a bit more time again on that basic thing. So you are never too late to refine/ polish your basics again!

More important is the depth you are standing in, and the point of gravity during standing. meaning more weigt on your forefoot, so that the tension in the achillesregion is correct and explosive. That means that the hips should be slightly bended to align the three tantien. It is a long story, ask your teacher. Unless it is (for him) a matter of conditioning both the posture and the muscles. realize that you will miss the fight with your mind. Try to feel and let the sensation go. The lesson is mostly, that you do need that much power to stand in such position. Try to play with tensed muscles, and your mind must be down, and not in strugle with thoughts. This helps.........

Take care,

Evert.

[Eric Ling]

Another Crane pix from Evert.

[essence]

Good day everybody.

Eric: I am also not sure where I got those clips from. The owner posted up a library of clips to share and I got it from there, but am now unsure of the exact website. Are the pictures posted of GM Chiu Wai and his father?

Evert: I understand the basics are very important and should never be neglected. Was it you who said that the practitioner should revisit Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen after learning Tit Sin Kuen and GGFFK will have a different flavour and challenge the practitioner differently?

Regarding the depth of the stance, the marker that was given to me is thighs parallel to the ground, making it a very deep stance. Is this what I should be training towards?

Thank you for your breakdown of the Sei Ping Ma, it gives me some things to concentrate on where my Ma should be and where I should apply and feel tension. I will apply these principles whenever I do my Ma again.

I do look forward to learning the Ng Long Ba Kwa Kun, but I am still a way off it yet I think. My Sifu will want me to learn the Monkey Pole and the Monkey Pole sparring set before teaching me the Ng Long Ba Kwa Kun. Nonetheless, I hold the NLBKK to be the penultimate pole set within Hung Gar.

Thank you all so much for sharing with me.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Tze Hou, did you notice the typical Crane fingers on the picture of Sifu Lee Chan Wo? He is the teacher of that youngster in the Crane squence. This branch (from Mok Gwai Lam) have a different Crane beak then the other branches. Your observation was correct on that clip. Luckily I found an article from the seventies with Sifu lee doing this handposition, a high resolution scan do the rest........

I did notice that there is a two finger beak (pecking) done in Hung Kuen Crane. Thumb and index finger, have seen it in the Lau Chaam branch of Hung Ga Kuen. That's the father of Lau Ga Leung.

Eric, are there Crane beak skills in Fukien Crane Boxing?

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

So this flayed fingers Crane's beak is unique to the Mok Gwai Lam branch only? Seeing this method of creating a Crane's beak makes me wonder about its application.

I notice, from the sideshot, that the thumb is directly behind the index finger as well here. Could it be they use only the index finger to strike like in the Lau Chaam branch?

Eric, I am also very curious as to the Crane beak techniques in your White Crane. Looks like in Hung Gar, there are at least 2 variations of the Crane's beak. Is this a similar trait in White Crane as well?

All very interesting material, makes me wonder how and why the technique has evolved into 2 different shapes.

Thank you all so much for sharing with me.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou

[pitbull]

thank you very much for the explanations of the sound. now i know what these sounds meant and when they are used. at 1st i though that thay are just to express emotions and chi but i suspected that there is more to it as well :-)

wow...the last pics sure have buff men in them

[Eric Ling]

Nataraya said:

Tze Hou, did you notice the typical Crane fingers on the picture of Sifu Lee Chan Wo? He is the teacher of that youngster in the Crane squence. This branch (from Mok Gwai Lam) have a different Crane beak then the other branches. Your observation was correct on that clip. Luckily I found an article from the seventies with Sifu lee doing this handposition, a high resolution scan do the rest........

I did notice that there is a two finger beak (pecking) done in Hung Kuen Crane. Thumb and index finger, have seen it in the Lau Chaam branch of Hung Ga Kuen. That's the father of Lau Ga Leung.

Eric, are there Crane beak skills in Fukien Crane Boxing?

Warm regards,

Evert.

Gentlemen,

Excellent subject matter – overdue if you ask me. Initially planning of raising this in the blocked area but now decided to do the skin here first. The main course will be served in privacy.

When the name “White Crane” is mentioned, the first thing that jumps to mind is typically the crane’s beak. This is something that started in the movies, first in Hong Kong and then Hollywood.

In reality, the crane’s beak plays a MINOR role in most Fukien/Fuzhou White Crane boxing, at least in the Cantonese’s sense - that is in a “pecking” manner. Generally, this pecking is more visible in Shaolin and Cantonese boxing.

Like in Fu-Hoc, when you hook (inverted) an incoming attack away from your body’s centerline and “peck” your attacker in his upper gate soft spots. This method of using the crane beak is an exception in Fukien/Fuzhou White Crane.

I am speaking for Whooping and Ancestral Crane now and I must say the crane beak is used more for:-

1. Hooking – like a “fok sau” in Wing Chun. Or using the outer part of the bent wrist to deflect. Evert, hope you don’t mind, I need to post a picture from something you sent to illustrate this.
2. Striking – using the bent wrist portion in a lifting, to the sides and downwards like in Praying Mantis.

The hooking is largely transitional and not a fixed posture. So when you see this in a form, blink and you’ll miss it.

What would be exciting (for me) is to chat about the major weapons (hand/leg) of White Crane. In fact, different streams allocate different weights to the various weapons.

You could almost set apart the various schools through this allocation.

One good case and this is something that I have been researching for a while now, is to inspect the difference between Fukien and Whooping Crane.

Fukien White Crane is more Shaolin (Northern Lohan Men) added to the principles discovered by Fang Chi Niang.

Whooping White Crane is Fukien White Crane mixed with Internal Boxing from Chen Shi-Nam.

Wing Chun, on the hand, is pre-Fuzhou White Crane’s spin off.

So to scrutinize the 3 side by side is really, IMHO, more enlightening.

And to ice the cake, cross-referencing with Hakka, would really make this a sumptuous meal.

Think about it Evert - Fukien White Crane / Fuzhou White Crane / Wing Chun and Hakka boxing on the same platform.

Game?

[Eric Ling]

Okay 2 pictures here illustrating functions of what we call the “Crane Head” in Fuzhou Crane Boxing.

Picture #1 is taken from the Feeding Crane system. Those of you familiar with 7 Stars Praying Mantis’s “Ben Bui” will find this technique recognizable. This is in the opening movements of “Ben Bui”.

Picture #2 – you see Sifu Dong Mu Yao and his disciple in a 2 men Crane set. Sifu Dong is from “Fuzhou Crane” and the technique displayed here is intended for the attacker to hit collarbone region. Again this reminds me of Praying Mantis “Tiao”.

So in a way, you could say the crane’s beak is done in both ways; fingers tightened into one striking point or frayed. It all depends on the intended functions.

Again, I must point up that practical applications of the “Crane Head” is definitively different in Fukien Cranes when compared to Shaolin/Cantonese Cranes

[essence]

Good day Eric.

Thank you for the very interesting pictures. I picture 1, 2 and 3 very Hokkien in flavour, using the flick of the wrist to generate the power in the palm technique. Not to say this is not done in Cantonese systems, but seeing this technique being done triggered memories vividly of my NCK days when we were made to stand and flick our wrists in different directions, thus I say very Hokkien flavoured.

I think in general, whenever the Hung Gar practitioner uses palms in a Crane application, we think of it more as the Crane's wings.

In the last picture, I can roughly make out an index finger strike into the collarbone area. Am I correct? If so, this reminds me of Northern Mantis, where the practitioner learns to form his fist like a praying mantis, i.e. with the thumb behind the index finger which is pointing downwards. Am I right?

Once again, thank you for the very interesting pictures. Triggering a lot of thinking.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Hey Tze Hou,

You are really something else! I really wish there are more like you – so eager for old knowledge.

You’ll be astonished how little the world actually know about traditional Fukien/Fuzhou White Crane.

For the longest time, the only book available was Liu’s family Feeding Crane. Next came “He Quan” and “Nan Quan Hui Zong” published by martial arts committee in China.

Unfortunately, the “cranes” in those 2 are “manufactured or re-assembled” cranes. Nothing like what traditional schools or teachers teach.

In “He Quan” only “Feeding Crane” is worth consideration. The other cranes, especially Whooping Crane, is nothing more than postures. Even then, postures are given the Wushu’s touch!

In “Nan Quan Hui Zong” the same Whooping Crane “Salad” form is included.
And if you refer to the applications, you’ll find that they fringe on “ridiculous” or at best elementary. None of the special Whooping Crane’s finesse is included.

Sorry to say, these books are viewed as “Whooping Crane Bibles”. In “Nan Quan”, there is a Tai Chor form and when this form was shown to Sifu Teo, he actually laughed out loud and shaking his head.

I will post from this book soon and discuss the techniques in there – both the “new” and traditional applications.

Discussion by invitation only and, Tze Hou, consider yourself invited.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

It is a sad day when precious knowledge is lost. It becomes even darker when people take something which is not true as gospel. Very sad indeed that the 2 books which are not true to their system's traditions have been made into reference books.

I love the traditional arts, they instill in you their fighting spirit, discipline and philosophy which becomes a way of life. In my opinion, to be true to the art is to learn its roots, only then can one be pure, which is why I fervently seek to find and refine my understanding of my art.

Thank you for holding me in such high regard, I feel very honoured that you would deem me fit to enter your personal discussion group. I will offer what I have and I will take whatever is taught to heart and hold it close to me.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Eight crane skills in Fu Hoc Seung Ying Kuen:

1. Hook – elbow break/ control, peck,
2. Hook – elbow break/ control, peck,
3. back of the wrist block, crane wings,
4. Crane wings + Heart penetrating kick,
5. Hook, peck,
6. Kick, hook, peck,
7. Crane head (phoenix eye fist)
8. Crane head (phoenix eye fist)

Resume:

In our branch the eight skills in Fu Hoc Seung Ying are: (4) hooks, (4) pecks, (2) phoenis eye fist, two kicks and once the crane wings (to cover the kick.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Nataraya]

Very stranbge discussion, this thread, with steps to all the sites. I am responsible for this too. We just let it happens.....

The technique that Dong Mu Yao shows is found in Tai Chi and Chow Ga Tong Long (Hakka Boxing), too. Look to the applications of "Needle at the Sea bottom". Actually I have this skill (and hand technique) explained by Paul Withrod, student of the late grandmaster Ip Shui. maybe in first instance this might sounbd strange for the reader, but fits in the discussion Ertic and I have for a long time. But readers, Eric is keeping information behind him. Wait till he starts to speak about White Crane tai Chi! Then it really become a mess and you will start to get SERIOUS identity problems. At the end you will realize that we all do "martial arts from China", hahahahaha.

Warm regards,

Evert.