Hung Gar Techniques.

[Nataraya]

What’s in a name, is a very important aspect, certainly for me because it covers (in fact) the whole (mental) action of the skill. The presented poems – as presented in Leung Daat’s books – are partly old while others are added or newly created sentences. Doesn’t matter, just nice to read and experiencing it what it does to year thoughts. Sometimes it can be clearing a lot, other times it said absolutely nothing.

I do not like to write down techniques in text because they are not fixed items in our branch, and ways of teaching. So many variations can be thought of such as attacking extremity, environment, personal condition. Also I am a man that ‘respond’ with own successful skills as experienced in the many sparring sessions.

“Hungry Crane searching for the Shrimps” , explains in fact everything. Intent, level of attack, focus, and body stasis and the action. Especially the term “Hungry” play a leading role in this skill. An image of a Crane searching for food will be of a great help. With this in mind I like to advise the reader to visit this skill in many branches. And notice that the crane is not really a crane, also that many schools play the crane in a hard and tiger orientated power. I can understand this because you want to go with the ‘flow’, and that’s Lohan speed and Tiger power. Not the way it should be play. Going back to the basics and flavour of the Crane, will help tremendously. Pecking, and certainly a shrimp from a big distance – belongs to Diem/ Dian or spotting. Soft tissue is the focus, some vulnerable spot such as nerve plexus, organ tissue or a vital spot. Please realize the technique in front of “Hungry Crane searching for the shrimp”, this is a kick. Do you think that the kick is successful? What if he grabs and hold my leg, what can I do then? Fall forwards and….. For you to explore during workout, will be my advise to my students. Their options we will face and analyze……

“Throwing ball from waves”, in fact the same kind of story. Water, the most powerful Element of nature, destroy everything, and still you can’t hold it, because most of the water will escape. How does a wave starts, does it have a relationship with the bottom of the sea (riff). What does it mean towards your generating of power. Fore foot drive or back foot drive. And technical speaking, what is the ‘weak’ point in this long arm skill? Do you need to dodge before launching? My advice, look to GM LSW picture and just imagine when your opponent miss (wrong timing), what are you facing. With that you understand the word “courage”.

Many skills exist but the power is to know/ realize when to use it. The idea in our branch of application is to face the skill from all points of view, then see if it does work in sparring. Then maybe it is something for you (personal!) to use it in a fight. Realize too that it is all about principles. Many techniques and variations can belong to one principle only. It take diligent study and energy to face all options, and so understand the broad variations of skills our ancestors gave us.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

Soft tissue, I take it this points mainly to the eyes, but I fail to visualise properly as the beak attacks downwards, perhaps going too far down is an exaggeration of the technique?

With the name Hungry Crane searching for Shrimps, I take it the attack is swift and accurate as when a Crane pecks into the water for its food.

I see where the courage for the "Throwing ball from waves" comes in if the attack is mis-timed, leaving me wide open in a vulnerable position. I will try my best to work out these techniques better when I next cross hands with my Sihings.

Thank you for your explanation.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Tze Hou,

I like that you make now- while sitting behind your computer - a Crane beak. Now try to hit the table, harder and harder. On top of your head there is a point Pak Hui/ Baak Wooi, try to softly touch this area. I will not ask you to go full power, but you can imagien the lovely sensation.

Still soft tissue are the favorite locations, but bony ones will be okay too. There is so much more then the eyes, thorat, carotid artery, Gallbladder 21. Jaw joint, very nice and sensitive one. Below the claviculae there are two nerve plexus. center's. Eric did mention some nice sensitve spots on the upper arms, forearms and hands. Then we have the legs. If my opponent is bended, then his neck is free, etceteras.

You underestimate the power and hardness of the 'beak'. Even the wings of the Crane - especially in Hakka styles - are crazy. We have specific conditioning drills for the soft dorsal sides of the hands. I can easuily break your arm with a touch, or your jaw, sternum, you mention it.

But again, it is time to play with the skills. The softer you launch, the harder it will hit you. Just like water..

Warm regards,

Evert.

[essence]

Good day Evert.

Ah so the main aim would be the Bai Hui Xie, according to my understanding of this, it is extremely dangerous to hit this point. Come to think of it, the Crane's Beak would be optimal in issuing such an attack on this exact point, again, thank you for pointing this out.

And you have pin-pointed my main concern, the strength of the Crane's Beak. Following your advice, I found that it would cause the finger tips considerable pain when hitting the table as I have never tried to condition the finger tips. Also, it has been pointed out that Crane attacks should not be like the Tiger, which is hard and strong, so, am I right to assume that the Crane's attack should be fast and accurate instead of trying to generate maximum strength?

From what you have said, the softer you launch, the harder the hit, I tried this on the table and found that by releasing the tension in my bridge and relaxing the forearms, there was a better spring action to the attack. Is this what you meant?

Seems like the Crane's true meaning is still hidden from me, I still have a lot of searching to find the Crane within. It is hard, as you said, with the major focus on the Tiger, but thanks to you guys, the journey is easier.

Gratefully,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Hi guys,

Okay Evert, you made your point.

It is with thorough understanding of the underlying principles that give you the latitude to “play”.

Evert, problem is there are many out there who are barely pass the fundamentals and they start to “experiment”. Result is then the obliteration of the original system. And the best bit is that they go round preaching this “new found” dogma.

To play, evolve or form necessitates that one has already “arrived”. And not a “cut corners” way to the arts.

I concur with you that different “MASTERS” imbued different touches to the arts. But only after having spent immense amount of time in receiving the arts in the first place.

Learn to walk before you learn to fly was how my teacher put it!

The “seeking shrimp” move – you are right. The original text talked about an unsuccessful kick – you got your leg trapped by your opponent. You use one hand to “scoop” opponent’s trapping hand, step down – this will bring opponent in, and then peck soft tissues. Could be the neck, eyes, temples or the point of “hundred understandings”.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Tze Hou,

Okay got some grabs from a Fu-Hoc performance. This kid won some kind of Traditional Forms Competition in China doing Fu-Hoc.

Performance is very good for a kid but I did notice that his Fu-Hoc is done differently from most that I am aware of.

Well, just to concentrate on what we have been discussing:-

• His “shrimp seeking” beak hand is executed at shoulder level in Si-Ping Ma.
• His “ball throwing” is done exactly like a typical “pow choy”.

Thought you might enjoy these grabs. I am searching for more Fu-Hoc materials for our discussion.

Thanks.

[essence]

Good day Eric.

First thing I noticed was the stance. Is he performing the Fu Hock in a Wushu flavour? The reason I say this is because his in-soles are not parallel, something which my Sifu stresses a lot, and his knees are extended beyond the toes, putting stress into the knee joints. Also, I believe the Sei Ping Ma is the backbone stance of Hung Gar, so I would have thought more emphasis would be placed on this particular stance being correct.

• His “shrimp seeking” beak hand is executed at shoulder level in Si-Ping Ma.

Hmm...this seems unconventional to me, am I right? Isn't this move executed in a transition from a Gum Gai into Jing Ma? Execution at shoulder height would mean an attack on the throat/collar bone area? I have never seen it executed like this before, then again, I am very inexperienced.

• His “ball throwing” is done exactly like a typical “pow choy”.

Now this I definitely noticed something very unusual. His fist is in an uppercut, which is palm is facing him. We do it with the palm facing the ground (as in GM Lam Sai Wing's picture). Another thing which I noticed was that his attack is over-exaggerated, over-extending himself, which is something I was taught never ever to do.

His Tiger Claw (last picture) is also done in an improper Diu Ma in my humble opinion. I was taught to be have the front foot on the toes, and majority, if not all, of the body's weight on the rear to facilitate a quick withdrawal of the foot if necessary.

I may be over-analysing this and being over-critical. What are your thoughts and comments on this guys?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

Tze Hou indeed, you are over critising this youngster his technique. Snapshots from a form absolutely give wrong snapshots, besides the fact that it depends on wwhich modus Eric took the snapshots. One tenth of a second to late, and you have very strange stances and handskills. So, to judge this is not correct.

Also, I do not care to much on stances during a full power act. I prefer to read the hips, and the explosion in the hands/ legs. If Geng is okay, I will not worry about the knee level stance. I have seen monkey boxers which play with every theory of correct alignment, and are deadly of their explosions.

Proper alignment, and good stances are aspects to start with and keep it polished all your life. But for a performance this idea (of doing every posture) correct and perfect, will lessen your drive. Simply because you can not reach a 'natural stage'.

Ever seen Morihei Ueshiba? Power is the secret, for that you need an ultimate relaxation and a perfect concentration.

Finally I think that Eric wasn't able to catch the correct moment for 'ball throwing'. We can't blame this old man, please remember his age. We must really respect his high age and I promised him to send him a decent cane soon. But I am afraid that he still neglect his real age, this poor man. His problem is Carlsberg ......hahahahahaha

Ball throwing is part of the Five Elements, seven stars sequence. Earth change into water, metal, wood and then fire. He is heading for the water movement. The change between Earth and water is one that you use your right 'backhand' to clean away. So, my interpretation is that his right hand is halfway between earth and water stage.

I think the last tiger posture is done very well, if it is on full speed. Important is the bended back, and the head position. I have truly the idea that his single tiger do show a round back, a must! Probably he past the final posture, prepearing the next posture. I gave him that credit for his (to much) extended arm.

The fact that he won a championship means that he did thousands of times Fu Hoc. For a youngster (around age 12) this is a very good start. let's hope that he have a good teacher that can show him tradition......

Warm regards,

Evert

[essence]

Good day Evert.

I apologise for my criticisms. What you have said holds more water and on reflection, it seems that I was wrong. I failed to consider the technique before and after the snapshots choosing to focus on the technique and stances in the snapshot, my mistake.

Thank you for correcting me. In future, I will remember to take the factor of the before and after techniques into consideration before analysing.

One question, when you say the boy might be coming from Earth into Water, does that mean his right hand would be the backfist, thus his left hand swings to the right? I assumed that he was finishing the Water swing to the left which was why I thought he had over-extended himself and found it funny that it was an uppercut.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Nataraya]

The five elements in that Chat Sing Lien Wan section are:
1. water (right arm),
2. earth (Left arm),
3. metal (right arm),
4. wood (Left arm/ hand),
5. fire (arrow), right fist.

The transitioning between water and earth is that the right fist - to be specific, backhand - goes downward to block the opponents incoming punch (for instance). At shoulder level the right backhand fist and LEFT Earth technique cross each other.

I think it doesn't need explaination that every Element skill have its particluar flavor, power generation and so also speed.

I haven't seen the performance at all, and so you might be correct in it. On the other hand I have seen many versions of Wong Fei Hung Fu Hoc, but never saw such technique. So I can imagien that you might be surprised if this was so. Eric can give us the answer. My statement was general, looking at details you can't use snapshots to critisize. You need movement to judge power expression.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[pitbull]

im not 'hungarian' but am a hung gar fan :-) i hope i can butt in the discussion though...sometimes it puzzels me when a 'hungarian' does some sounds. are the sounds symbolic of the animals or anything? apart from the usual 'wooooo' (like bruce lee) that i heard from some i even encountered one person doing a 'bzzzzzt bzzzzzt bzzzzzzt' sound...just like a buzzer...what does these represent?

[Eric Ling]

Okay, putting all my responses in one post here:-

• Evert, letting you go this time for calling me an old drunk. You did sent 2 nice clips. One much better than the other I must say. The Tai Sheng Pek Kwa performance is mediocre, you think? But it did provide a nice view – the practical possibilities of this monkey system. I think Wushu monkey would do well to see this. IMHO, the clip performance delivery is short of the monkey’s “mischievousness”. The SPM clip is much better even with just kids doing their drills. I love the Sifu’s statements and hearing it in that heavily accented Cantonese is just beautiful. Reminds me of my Hung Gar’s teacher – the same drawl. Everything is in the “ma” or the “horse” – how often do you hear this these days? The “horse” and the techniques must act in unison was what he stressed – Tze Hou pay heed to this. The SECRET of CKF!! Hahaha. The other point that I find “enlightening” is his explanation of SPM’s “geng”. Only 2 to 3 inches and sufficient for them to convey their unique “geng”. If Martin is as smart as he wants us to think (hehehehe), he should quickly pick up Fujian Bai He’s “Ba Fen” and compare. 2 almost identical styles in terms of range and “jin” execution. In fact, I saw “Ba Fen” once and now looking at your SPM, I must say they really look alike. Amusingly, I read somewhere that some Uechi-ryu folks are now saying that SPM could be their source. Looking at your clip, I am thinking maybe…..

• Okay back to the kid’s Fu-Hoc. Both of you are right. I did not capture the best moments in the performance and looking at stills is just not good enough. Tze Hou, there is no such thing as over-analyzing in the process of learning! My late Sifu loved to say this:” Even the hair must be right when you do White Crane!” Overall this kid’s performance is very good considering his age and I am sure he will mature into a fantastic exponent. The Fu-Hoc might have been “tailored” for performance purposes – I am not sure. But like Evert said, someone should give him “tradition”.

• I will get a proper scanner instead of shooting using a digital camera – only need to “beat” my wife first. She is a “mean” Chou Jia player and I want to be careful.hahaha. In the meanwhile, be kind and bear with the blurry shots sometimes.

• Got an email from a friend who is a frequent visitor of this forum. He “blasted” me for all the tiny White Crane photos and pictures. Arrr, there is method in this madness yet. I am totally conscious of a pilferer who is always ready to just “lift” pictures and texts to call his own. Same deal, if you want anything just PM me – I’ll do my best to accommodate. That thief can go invent his own BS!

[essence]

Good day everybody.

Evert:
Yes I do know the individual elements' method of power generation are different and do different things upon impact. Indeed, thus I must agree that in order to judge a technique, it is important to watch the movement in motion.

On your experiences with WFH's Fu Hock without this technique, are you referring to the form missing the backfist transition into Water or missing the element(s) totally? In fact, I am equally surprised that it should miss either one.

Pitbull:
My rough understanding of the funny sounds generated by a Hung Gar practitioner.

Hung Gar is one of the systems which incorporate emotions into its system. Humans react to emotions and thus, emotions serve to concentrate energy. These sounds serve 2 purposes, in my humble opinion, that is, to stimulate emotions and its accompanying characteristics and to target the vital organs. Again, in my humble opinion, these sounds generate vibrations through the body and different sounds generate different vibrations which target the different vital organs, for health purposes.

However, I have not heard of the buzzing which you have described as I am very young in the system and have not been exposed to it yet. I am also unable to give a breakdown for which sound targets which organs, I apologise for my lack of knowledge in this area.

Eric:
Every elder CKF player I have met placed great emphasis on stances. Many of them have also said exactly what you said, that the stances must compliment the technique for the proper application and power generation. One will not work without the other. I have kept all these words close to my heart.

Indeed, I hope this boy can grow up to become a history figure in Hung Gar, assuming that he receives proper instruction.

With regards to SPM, my Sifu's friend seems to pay attention to short geng as well. I have only extreme respect for SPM stylists as I know the devastation they can hand out, very great respect for the late GM Ip Shui, one the art's true exponents.

May I say, Eric, that you are one lucky man that your wife is a kung fu practitioner. My girlfriend, when she sees me doing some Dragon breathing, laughs because of the funny sounds, which makes it difficult for me to concentrate. Thus I have had to exclude her from my kung fu life to an extent in order to concentrate. She cannot deny the fact that my practicing has opened up and enlarged my back and made my body harder though.

One question to throw out at this point. When we do a cut with the forearms (swing forearm down palm facing up at sort of a 45 degree angle), we are taught not to force the arm down to cut. Instead, we are taught to use the whole body. We are taught to relax the shoulder and forearms as much as possible, with the shoulder generating the movements only, not the power. The power comes from opening and closing the ribs. The more you relax your shoulder and arm, the harder the hit.

Question is, is this found within all Southern systems, or for that fact, is this a kung fu practice or is it found within Hung Gar/SPM?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[pitbull]

thank you very much for the explanation. at least it gave me insight as what they are for. i actually thought that the sounds were symbolic of the animal forms...going back to the buzzing sound it is very distict. as far as conveying emotions with sound,i think most hard styles share in common in this part :-)

[Eric Ling]

pitbull said:

thank you very much for the explanation. at least it gave me insight as what they are for. i actually thought that the sounds were symbolic of the animal forms...going back to the buzzing sound it is very distict. as far as conveying emotions with sound,i think most hard styles share in common in this part :-)

Let's wait for Evert to make some sense out of this ??